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Author Topic:   Money Isn't a False God
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2353 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 150 (615077)
05-10-2011 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Bailey
05-09-2011 10:45 PM


Misunderstanding
quote:
The 'that' in your question ('But don't you think that's a pretty narrow way to construe it these days?') referred to PD's contention false gods were gods of surrounding nations, while the 'it' referred to the legitimate definition of "false gods".

This forms the question, "Do you not think (that supposing false gods were the gods of surrounding nations is) a pretty narrow way to construe (the legitimate definition of false gods) these days?".

And so - with this understanding, the first 'it' in PD's statement ('I think it is an appropriate way to construe it') refers to her plain understanding of Yirmyahu's use of the concept of "false gods" and the second 'it' refers a legitimate concept of false gods. Again, as I said in our first exchange, I may have misunderstood one of you, or the other or both.


You understood me correctly. Thank you.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2353 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 47 of 150 (615129)
05-10-2011 2:16 PM


Worship or Worship
Worshiping Mammon and Worshiping False Gods

IMO, these are not the same.

As I pointed out in Message 37 the our English word worship has two meanings.

One deals with paying homage, sacrifice, ceremonies, etc. and the other deals with adoring reverence or love. In very simple terms, one is primarily physical application and the other is primarily emotional.

Worshiping a god involved the physical practices of paying homage, sacrifice, ceremonies, etc.
Worshiping Mammon (Wealth) deals with an emotional obsession.

An obsession with money or wealth is not the same as the rituals done for gods.

For "money is a false god" to be a metaphor, there needs to be some likeness between money and false gods.


Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 05-11-2011 1:40 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 48 of 150 (615215)
05-11-2011 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by purpledawn
05-10-2011 2:16 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
PD writes:

For "money is a false god" to be a metaphor, there needs to be some likeness between money and false gods.

Beyond both inspiring an "adoring reverence or regard" (to use your own definitions of "worship") I don't think there is anything else on which to base the comparison.

But is a comparison beyond that being made when people say that money is worshiped as a false god? I might well describe someone as 'worshiping money' or as treating 'money as their god'. But I wouldn't mean anything more than the comparison stated above.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 05-10-2011 2:16 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2011 2:26 PM Straggler has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2353 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 49 of 150 (615221)
05-11-2011 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Straggler
05-11-2011 1:40 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
quote:
Beyond both inspiring an "adoring reverence or regard" (to use your own definitions of "worship") I don't think there is anything else on which to base the comparison.
How does currency inspire adoration?

quote:
But is a comparison beyond that being made when people say that money is worshiped as a false god? I might well describe someone as 'worshiping money' or as treating 'money as their god'. But I wouldn't mean anything more than the comparison stated above.
How does one treat currency like a deity?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Straggler, posted 05-11-2011 5:10 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 50 of 150 (615242)
05-11-2011 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by purpledawn
05-11-2011 2:26 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
PD writes:

How does currency inspire adoration?

I don't think that "currency"does inspire adoration as such. But people can be said to adore money and wealth in the sense of making the acquisition of it an end in itself and loving the acquisition and possession of it to the exclusion or detriment of other things. In that sense money can be adored, revered, worshiped etc. etc.

PD writes:

How does one treat currency like a deity?

Again I think you are being overly pedantic in your use of semantics.

Nobody is suggesting that those who can be said to "worship" money are going to setup their prayer mats outside the local branch of HSBC. In the sense of being directly comparable to a supernatural being worthy of appeasement through worship you are right that the two things are incomparable. But that isn't what people mean when they say money is a false god (IMHO).

We quite legitimately and meaningfully use words like "worship" or "idolise" and even "god" to mean things beyond their strict religiously related definition.

For example David Beckham is (or at least was) referred to as a football god. He is arguably idolised and worshiped in a genuine sense of the word that has everything to do with a devout following and nothing to do with being a supernatural entity that needs to be appeased. The use of these terms in such a context is kinda metaphorical and kinda literal in a non-religious sense of the terms being used.

Likewise the use of such terms and phrases when used to describe people's attitude to money and wealth. I think you are being overly literal and very narrow in your analysis.


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2353 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 51 of 150 (615247)
05-11-2011 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Straggler
05-11-2011 5:10 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
quote:
I don't think that "currency"does inspire adoration as such. But people can be said to adore money and wealth in the sense of making the acquisition of it an end in itself and loving the acquisition and possession of it to the exclusion or detriment of other things. In that sense money can be adored, revered, worshiped etc. etc.
You're basically talking about an obsession. Worshiping false gods wasn't necessarily an obsession, but a religious practice. A very different mental process, IMO. In many cases paying homage to the god of the town you're passing through was no more important than paying a toll. Those preaching money as a false god aren't usually speaking of obsessions.

Exodus 20:3-5
Evaluation: Paganism has virtually disappeared from Western culture today. So, does this Commandment mean anything to us? What are we tempted to substitute for God in our lives? Do we put our trust in wealth more than in God? Do we seek power over others instead of seeking God? Do we look for fulfillment in pleasure instead of in God? Many people believe these things are the idols and false gods of today's world.

By this standard, chocolate could be a false god if one seeks comfort from chocolate instead of seeking comfort from god.

IMO, people don't substitute those things for God in their lives. The Hebrews very obviously did. Their god seemed to have abandoned them in their opinion so they found another god. There were plenty to choose from. Your car fails, you buy another car. Jobs, hobbies, children, illness, and life in general may keep us busy and unable to give as much time or money to the church as the church wants, but I don't feel people are substituting money for God.

quote:
We quite legitimately and meaningfully use words like "worship" or "idolise" and even "god" to mean things beyond their strict religiously related definition.
I understand that, but when used within the religion one would go with the religious meaning, especially when they are using the Bible to support the point.

quote:
For example David Beckham is (or at least was) referred to as a football god. He is arguably idolised and worshiped in a genuine sense of the word that has everything to do with a devout following and nothing to do with being a supernatural entity that needs to be appeased. The use of these terms in such a context is kinda metaphorical and kinda literal in a non-religious sense of the terms being used.
I understand that. It's an exaggeration. I'm not talking about secular use of religious terms.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 05-11-2011 8:24 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 52 of 150 (615250)
05-11-2011 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
05-11-2011 6:22 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
If by 'false god' you absolutely and exclusively mean something that is in direct competition with a supernatural being such as Yahweh in terms of being the object of religious devotion - Then you are inarguably correct that money cannot be described as a 'false god'.

If by "worship" you absolutely and exclusively mean "worship" in the purely religious sense of erecting temples, praying and generally seeking appeasement or favours from a supernatural entity - Then again money cannot be descibed as a 'false god' that is worshiped.

But in the same sense that I know what someone means when they say that something or someone is worshiped or idolised in a more general sense I also know exactly what they mean when they describe money being worshiped as a false god. In this sense the phrase is entirely meaningful.

In the overtly religious sense you seem intent on pursuing money is not worshiped and, on this entirely literal religious basis, cannot be described as a false god. But I am unconvinced that anybody other than you is claiming that such a position exists?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2353 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 53 of 150 (615263)
05-11-2011 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Straggler
05-11-2011 6:48 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
quote:
But in the same sense that I know what someone means when they say that something or someone is worshiped or idolised in a more general sense I also know exactly what they mean when they describe money being worshiped as a false god. In this sense the phrase is entirely meaningful.
They don't describe money as being worshiped as a false god. They say money, among other things, is a false god. IOW, people are choosing money, power, etc. in place of God. I disagree.

quote:
In the overtly religious sense you seem intent on pursuing money is not worshiped and, on this entirely literal religious basis, cannot be described as a false god. But I am unconvinced that anybody other than you is claiming that such a position exists?
Not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

If money is a false god, then there should be similarities between the two for that metaphor. We've already established there is no physical religious worship of money. The other idea left is that a person is choosing money in place of God as the Hebrews did when they went after other gods. I don't feel that people actually make that choice concerning money or power.


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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 363 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 54 of 150 (615265)
05-11-2011 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by purpledawn
05-10-2011 3:06 AM


Re: Misunderstanding
You understood me correctly.

Disproven by the fact that you quoted more than just

quote:
But don't you think that's a pretty narrow way to construe it these days?

Why would you answer a rhetorical question? Moreover, why would you ever think that it would be reasonable for someone to think you were answering a rhetorical question, instead of responding to the material immediately adjacent to your remarks?

I understood you correctly, as I've proved. It continues to be obvious that you're engaged in a form of misrepresentation that violates the forum guidelines.


This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 363 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 150 (615267)
05-11-2011 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
05-11-2011 6:22 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
By this standard, chocolate could be a false god if one seeks comfort from chocolate instead of seeking comfort from god.

Chocolate would certainly be a false god for people who seek comfort from it, instead of from the Christian God.

I don't know why you think this example is a refutation. I have absolutely no problem with the notion of chocolate as a false god. Why do you?

Do you think there's not a cult of chocolate? Are you aware that there's a god of chocolate?


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Caleb
Junior Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-11-2011


Message 56 of 150 (615270)
05-11-2011 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by purpledawn
05-11-2011 8:14 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
I think you need to look up a definition. These are taken directly from dictionary.refrence.com

Worship
1. reverent honor and homage paid to god or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.

I think at least a couple of these apply to money. A person can pay honor to money and they can hold money with high regards which if I interpreted these definitions right means that you can worship money. If you worship something other than the true God it gets in the way of God. Therefore, it can be a false god.


"Everybody makes mistakes"
Visit my website at www.propagandabypass.org

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2353 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 57 of 150 (615273)
05-11-2011 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Caleb
05-11-2011 8:35 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
quote:
I think at least a couple of these apply to money. A person can pay honor to money and they can hold money with high regards which if I interpreted these definitions right means that you can worship money. If you worship something other than the true God it gets in the way of God. Therefore, it can be a false god.
Worship how? What does the worship entail?

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 Message 56 by Caleb, posted 05-11-2011 8:35 PM Caleb has responded

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Caleb
Junior Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-11-2011


Message 58 of 150 (615276)
05-11-2011 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by purpledawn
05-11-2011 8:53 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
What does the worship entail? Well, exuse me if I am mistaken, but doesn't the definition say to pay reverent honor or to hold with adoring reverence or regard.


"Everybody makes mistakes"
Visit my website at www.propagandabypass.org

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Caleb
Junior Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-11-2011


Message 59 of 150 (615278)
05-11-2011 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Caleb
05-11-2011 9:18 PM


Re: Worship or Worship
Sorry, PurpleDawn, but I think I may have misinterpreted your question. Did you mean what physical activities do you do when you worship money? If so here is my response. When one worships money they hold it to a higher standard, as I posted earlier. Therefore, people rely on it for protection, safety, happiness, ect. just like you would for a god. Instead of looking to the actual God they look towards money for the things you would expect out of God. For this kind of worship you wouldn't offer sacrifices or anything like that because they do not have to please money in order to get its benefits. They just have to obtain lots of it and keep it safely hidden. So, they end up serving money like it is an actual God.
I hope all of this made sense!


"Everybody makes mistakes"
Visit my website at www.propagandabypass.org

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12719
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 60 of 150 (615306)
05-12-2011 7:14 AM


Mderator On Duty
I lack the wisdom and time to untangle this Gordian Knot - they happen so fast!

I have formed an opinion that seems only slightly more likely than not of being correct, so I shall keep it to myself. I do think some subtle nuances of differing interpretations are in play regarding what constitutes worship, as well as its power to transform the objects of its attention into holy entities, whether false or not. Possibly this thread's participants are underestimating the potential for the interplay of meanings to contribute to confusion and misunderstandings and so are blaming other participants rather than the topic.

But I will monitor this thread for a while beginning today. Please follow the Forum Guidelines.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
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