Jesus The false prophet

Absolutely not. We see no such thing; no such thing exists; there is no Jesus in the OT.JonEdited by Jon, : No reason given.

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Love your enemies!

Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven and His Kingdom are all the same thing. Matthew used "Kingdom of Heaven" as a more respectful, (for Mattew anyway), way of saying Kingdom of God as many Jews wouldn't say the name of Yahweh.

That's a common teaching in some Chapters of Club Christian but it doesn't stand up to examination. So far every one of the claimed references to Jesus from the Old Testament have turned out to be simply quote mining and misrepresentation. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

I think you're wrong in this. There is a narrative throughout the OT that Jahweh would return to redeem His people. In saying that though, there is no doubt that the pre-Jesus Jews had varying ideas of how that would look and that very few if anyone thought it would look like it did when it finally happened in Jesus. There are however some clues.One would be the "Son of Man' reference in Daniel 7:

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13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away ; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

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Another one that is less cryptic is in Isaiah 42.

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1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold ; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. 2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. 3 "A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish ; He will faithfully bring forth justice. 4 "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth ; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law." 5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it, 6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, 7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison . 8 "I am the LORD, that is My name ; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. 9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things ; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."

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Or the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:

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1 Who has believed our message ? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed ? 2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground ; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. 3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief ; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried ; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities ; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way ; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth ; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief ; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied ; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong ; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors ; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Better go back and read thoughtfully. As per the text I cited, there are dead disciples who, on the Mount of Transfiguration of Jesus when he glowed etc, appearing with Moses and Elijah, saw people and phenomena relating to the coming kingdom before they died.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

All that talk for a lousy vision of the future, what actualy was not a vision of the future but a vision of heaven.Why couldn't he just say in one weak im gonna show you where i came from?Are you sure hi dint mean something like this would happen Note this time the word generation is used not just some of you.U sure he was talking about a vision a few blokes would receive.

Hey PD,

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The author of Matthew is the only one that said the son of man would come in his kingdom.
The other two synoptics said the kingdom of God.

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Since Matthew and Luke pulled from Mark, it is usually better to argue what Mark presented. It is believed to be written closer to 70 AD than the other two. The author of Mark also presented Jesus as a mortal, not divine.

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Why is it better? The discussion (at least when I joined in) was Matthew 16. ICANT focused on that lone verse and took the stance that it was not in error. I simply pointed out that it was. Jesus predicted the end times during his disciples lifetime. Just because Matthew "copied" from Mark does not mean he shares the exact same ideas and theology.

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Now Jesus can only be considered a false prophet if he actually claimed that the message was from God and then attempted to lead his followers to other gods.

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I think we're talking about semantics here. Jesus most certainly went around predicting when the end times were to occur...and he was wrong. I understand what you're saying. I was not disputing the "defintion" of what a prophet is according to the Bible, but ICANTs stance on Matthew 16.

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A prediction that doesn't come about doesn't automatically mean Jesus was a false prophet.

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I disagree...at least when Jesus is concerned.1) Most Christians believe he was god himself. I would say an all knowing being who cannot predict his own end times...most certainly means he is a false prophet.2) Since Jesus was not god though, but divine, sent by god while claiming that his message is FROM god...I would say thats also a good indictater that he is a false prophet.

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The rules of condemning false prophets and God's past behavior give legitimate support for Jesus not being a false prophet.

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You would need to show that Jesus claimed the message was from God or that Jesus tried to have his followers follow other gods.

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Well, showing Jesus claiming that his message was from god is easy, its in the gospels. As for showing Jesus trying to have his followers follow another god...well, again, semantics. Obviously the god Jesus was preaching was not the Jewish version.

I know you are addressing Franko, but can you please elaborate? Which disciples, that Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 16, died?Also, can you please also show me during the transfiguration where Jesus:1) Sat on his throne.
2) Angels arrived.
3) All nations were gathered before him.
4) People were seperated.
5) Righteous rewarded.Context Buzz, context.

Hi Eric, The message you replied to said:

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Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

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I do think that Matthew 24:27-34 is a much more problematic scripture.

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Why don't you start a thread on this text and we can discuss it.

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God Bless,

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Message 52So Matthew 24:27-34 is the only text I mentioned.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Quote mining from the Bible? LOL.Prophecy OT - Genesis 3:15 (NIV) And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."NT - Galatians 4:4 (NIV) But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,NT - 1 John 3:8 (NIV) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.----------------------------------------------------------------Prophecy OT - Isaiah 7:14 (NIV) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.NT - Matthew 1:18-2:1 (NIV) This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us." 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem--------------------------------------------------------------------Prophecy OT - Micah 5:1 (NIV) Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."NT - Matthew 2:1 (NIV) After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to JerusalemNT - Matthew 2:6 (NIV) "'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"-----------------------------------------------------------------Prophecy OT - Isaiah 53:9 (NIV) He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.NT - 1 Peter 2:22 (NIV) "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."-----------------------------------------------------------Prophecy OT - Zechariah 11:12-13 (NIV) I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.NT - Matthew 26:15 (NIV) and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.-----------------------------------------------------------------Isaiah Chapter 53 is an entire Prophecy regarding Jesus. It's fulfillment is in the NT. It's to long to post here. Among MANY MANY other prophecies in the OT fulfilled in the New.Of course you know all this, and are sitting back laughing as everyone posts the ENTIRE OT and it's prophecies for you as you sit back and watch. So, enjoy it, and your welcome. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Why is it better? The discussion (at least when I joined in) was Matthew 16. ICANT focused on that lone verse and took the stance that it was not in error. I simply pointed out that it was. Jesus predicted the end times during his disciples lifetime. Just because Matthew "copied" from Mark does not mean he shares the exact same ideas and theology.

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I explained why IMO it is better. It is believed to be written closer to 70 AD than the other two. The author of Mark also presented Jesus as a mortal, not divine.As for Matthew 16, ICANT didn't focus on that verse in the message you responded to. He spoke of it in Message 51. Remember, this is Bible Study, not Accuracy and Inerrancy. ICANT gave a very nice reasoning of what the authors have Jesus predicting.

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I think we're talking about semantics here. Jesus most certainly went around predicting when the end times were to occur...and he was wrong. I understand what you're saying. I was not disputing the "defintion" of what a prophet is according to the Bible, but ICANTs stance on Matthew 16.

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It is about what constitutes a false prophet, not a prophet. IMO, per Deuteronomy, Jesus doesn't qualify as a false prophet even if one feels that what he predicted didn't come to pass. As we see in the OT, God can also change his mind after he's given a prophet a message and not make it come to pass. That doesn't make one a false prophet either.So even if one does feel that the prediction was from God and it didn't come to pass, one would also need to show that God didn't change his mind.

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1) Most Christians believe he was god himself. I would say an all knowing being who cannot predict his own end times...most certainly means he is a false prophet.

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It's irrelevant what Christians believe. This is about what is written. As I said before, if one tries to argue that Jesus is God, then again he is not a false prophet; he's a god. Prophets were mortals.

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2) Since Jesus was not god though, but divine, sent by god while claiming that his message is FROM god...I would say thats also a good indictater that he is a false prophet.

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Do the synoptics claim that all things spoken by Jesus were a direct message from God?The message in Matthew is different than Mark and Luke. Matthew 12:28 implies the kingdom isn't strictly a physical kingdom.

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Well, showing Jesus claiming that his message was from god is easy, its in the gospels. As for showing Jesus trying to have his followers follow another god...well, again, semantics. Obviously the god Jesus was preaching was not the Jewish version.

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Show me that Jesus claimed that the prediction he spoke was from God.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPDHow in the WORLD is this comment OFF topic? It's BIBLE study! Are you kidding me? Someone (jar) claimed that nothing in the Old Testement refered to Jesus and all I did was simply point out prophecies in the OT that referenced him. Which IS what was being discussed. How is this off topic again? The Admin seems a little touchy on these forums. This isn't an open debate, it's debate that HAS to line up with whatever the moderators see fit. It's sorta kinda like communism, you know like China. This forum is of American founders right? If not I apologise and get it now. If it IS an open forum for people to respond to other people WHICH is what I was doing what's the problem?Someone made a claim that the Bible did not talk about Jesus in the OT and I showed that person he was wrong. THAT'S debating. And I backed it up with the BIBLE. How sad to see this. This is a joke.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

I think because there is already a thread discussing those prophecies about Jesus.

Hi ICANT.Yes, in message 52 you only addressed Matthew 24. In your previous message, which you only posted minutes earlier, you focused on Matthew 16.I responded to message 52, instead of message 51 and addressed the issue of Matthew 16.Are you really going to suggest you didnt know what I was post I was refering to when you laid out an entire well thought out post on Matthew 16 and my reponse was to Matthew 16? Did you really need two posts to bring to light I replied to the wrong post and not address the issue I presented? Sheesh.....If it was that confusing, I apologize. I'll try to be more careful in the future.In refering to post 51, Matthew 16 refers to the end times, which were to occur during the lifetime of his disciples. You disagree. You also mentioned the kingdom of heaven mentioned in Matthew 16 was internal. I disagree.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Since frako has asked about it, I think it can be discussed here. I don't have a well formed opinion on the matter, so I am uncomfortable starting a thread. I think there are existing threads that could be used.