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Author | Topic: Prophecy vs Free will | |||||||||||||||||||||||
IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Please define what constitutes a prophesy?
IMHO, this is the proven outcome of a forecast; the forecast must be proven to made before the event occured - not retrospectively. E.g. the dead sea scrolls, dated at least 200 BCE, does mention a prophesy which became vindicated 2000 years later, despite all attempts to overturn it, occuring when it was least probable. Please identify such a prophesy elsewhere?
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: This refers to the factor of temptation, alluded to in the metaphorical story of the snake in the Adam and Eve story. There is no actual satan - this contradicts a host of other advocations and laws and showcases only paganism against true monotheism. There are no head bashing deities battling for supremecy nor angels with harps. Laws and commands are balanced against the factor of temptation - else they have no merit. Adam and Eve were magnified by temptation to a threshold greater than their previous stations; so was Abraham.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Prophesy, if of a credible true source, never negates free will - both are from the one source. Thus I asked what defines prophesy and how this is tested; if the prophesy is not a vindicated true prophesy, why bother?
quote: This must be directed on those claiming there is a devil/satan. Since this was never proven it is legitimate to dispute it.
quote: Ok. I referred to how one comes out of a test, and that even one who fails the test is still greater than one never tested. It appears to be the only means of elevation.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: There is no freewill. We have limited control of anything: 99.9% of all actions are involuntary [breething; etc]; the 1% applying to moral/ethical decisions only [to steal or not to steal]. Freedom is lawlessness; Liberty is law based. If the prophesy of a Jew in Judea boasting his people and nation will be destroyed, and his followers have a passion of it - it is quite dispicable and perverse. However I don't believe this happened - its a bogus Roman made story which Europe should have questioned, then dumped in a green bag. 'ALL' - bar none, of the ancestors of today's Christians were enforced into their beliefs, and questioning it became a bad career move in medevial Europe.
quote: These are spiritual forces only and not physical entities of any consequence accept for delivering a message. Today, the spiritual mode has been taken away and science given in its stead; we do not need both. We have no proof of anything spiritual the past 2000 years; the only prophesy occuring relates to the Hebrew bible.
quote: Depends what you term as biblical. Revelation denotes something new. We cannot prove the FX miracles in the Hebrew bible, however we have hard copy magestic laws from that source as apposed to replacement theologies wholly rested on belief - and no laws for humanity. A critical difference.
quote: If the law [authority] is applicable equally to all, and also clearly just - it neutralizes the issue of interfearence. Here, the authorities themselves are also under the same law. We cannot say, NOT TO STEAL is an intrusion; we can say a self preserving law enforced on others is an intrusion: e.g. born of the devil thus you are bad. Was not Rome the devil which had blood dripping from its sword - what devil nonesense is that applied to those who challenged Rome alone - and won?
quote: What will one do with freewill where there is no means to test their validity? The entire universe is made of a positive/negative duality, which pervades everything, both inanimate and life constructs. There is no elevation where there is no opposing force; there is no ONE in the universe. The one tested is greater than one never tested: THE MOST RIGHTIOUS CANNOT STAND WHERE A REPENTANT SINNER STANDS. Thus an elevation can only apply here.
quote: You affirm the point. We are all tested by forces, hopefully for some underlying reason. There has not been a Messiah because we do not know the purpose of creation - this is the primal reason for a Messiah. We are in freefall,not knowing our purpose here and why. This says the physical realm is superior to any spiritual one - because spiritual beings are not tested.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Either all the claims of spiritual stuff was false or that it has been replaced by science today and irrelevent; I select the latter because humanity could not survive without both. Would anyone today accept someone saying they know someone who overheard someone rose from the dead - why not - or why did some do then - how did a Norwegian come to accept a fiery preacher telling of what happened long ago in another place - w/o a shred of proof till today?
quote: An opposing interaction can only occur in a duality. It takes two to tango applies.
quote: If no absolute, no belief; it contradicts any claim to a Creator. THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS is an absolute [accepted by humanity]; TURN THE OTHER CHEECK is not. The dif is the Hebrew evdences itself in reality as opposed solely on belief - its for this here physical realm! However, the factor of forgiveness, mercy, longsuffering, loving kindness [none of which are Gospel but Hebrew] does neutralize any semblance of negating free will. When delved further, we find the negative absolutes are in the Gospel and Quran, obviously born in suspicious undertakings, thinking Israel is dead and free for the taking: we do not see Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc saying some are born of the devil and/or ape; we do see that those who made those absolutes have perpetrated the most devilish and apish deeds.
quote: What I have percieved is that there is a critical difference when the Hebrew bible describes events in ancient humanity's history - and what 'laws' must apply. Many confuse these factors. God is not agreeing or accepting bad stuff that happened but accurately describing them as at 4000 years ago; evidential by examining a timeline what other nations did at that time. The Hebrew laws are magestic - none have been able to better them to date or negate anything therein, despite this being an obsessive quest.
quote: In a sense the uni is perfect. It has laws whch may not always appear acceptable, such as innocent people being killed by tsunamies and plane crashes [not fair!], but it is precisely those random factors which give any meaning to a potential reason applying, to the extent we would see the universe as artificial, contrived and in contradiction of reality with no cost factor applying. This is the highest arena possible; if there are angels with harps somewhere, they would be aghast at our situation, bowing down to us in awe how we survive in such a zone of inevitable death at any time with no warning. In turn we should laugh at those spiritual entities, challenging them to put down their harps and prevail here! In a sense, humanity and other life forms are the real gladiators in the ultimate arena. I cannot imagine another reason applying - everything else seems utterly full of merciless indifference with no reason applying: a contradiction of a universe obviously displaying wisdom in its contruction every place we look. Random cannot happen randomly: try to sing out of tune deliberately!? Random has to be intentionally constructed to factor in. Think about it - one can make a car - but how many can make one which includes unfathomable random factors?
quote: The natural forces become another test. It is not just your fellow man who tests you - its also the wind, the temperatures and one's own mind. Its sensaround. Random was always present, while the complex universe also prevails - a contradiction!
quote: Once there were no laws in the universe. Moral laws require people and immoral forces. Once the uni was formless and void and nothing but am unformed void prevailed - everything was one big mush; read, no science, no laws of gravity, thus no stars and life was seen [this is V2 of Genesis]. The advent of science and laws emerged in V3, namely the formless was turned to form [read, laws emerged]. One can see the greatest depth in Genesis now, tapping state of art science today in what appears a very deceptively simple text explaining the hediest premises: where/when/how did laws come from? It begs the question did they always exist - how so if the uni is finite? I find such depictions in Genesis of the most ultimate issues facing humanity being subjected to opposing forces like other belief systems and atheism - all are created, factored in forces which act as a balancing act for elevation. Yes Genesis is humanity's most mysterious doument: check every forum debate you like - they are discussing nothing else than what Genesis is saying, affirming and negating it and making normal folk into fanatics.
quote: The Hebrew bible [The NT is old - superceded with the super new Quran, right!?]. OT is a false, condescending and negating premise based on covert heritage genocide and robbery, which has failed to fulfill away the Hebrew bible - the truth behind antisemitism. Bite that hard, disdained silver bullet. If the NT folk observed the Hebrew moral laws, its followers would not have attained the honor of being humanity's greatest murderers of innocent people throughout history [a fact, not an opinion]. Walk humbly with your God applies. The NT is a lawless document - it never gave humanity a single law. Love, which the NT antithetized [as does the Quran antithetize 'peace'], is conditional and subject to two transcending factors seen in the 10 Commandments: respect [4th C], which commands respect instead of love as the merit applying and the far more difficult to attain; and the factor of honesty [3rd C]. What good is love without respect and honesty? Is it still love if someone says they love you and do the oppositte when you turn your face? The NT has no legitimate claim to the factor of love, which it shouts about all over the place in generic, abstract mode - with horrific conditions in the fine print. The Hebrew says love is conditional and must be proven and merited. Else beware - it is not what is advertised in the headings! Atheism is cowardly - attacking the Hebrew bible when it is least attackable, remaining silent of the most attackable - because the latter is a bad career move, while the former gets you 5 minutes of stardom and a tap on the shoulder.
quote: I check mated someone in another such thread. The inculcation of negating the Hebrew laws as bad is based on horrific politics, not represented by reality and the reverse is the case. The world turns on the Herew laws exclusively, and no I am not a fanatic: I long to find other good laws and premises - try me! No Hebrew laws - no morality, ethicality, judiciary, etc, etc. There is no such thing as Christian or Islamic law; a law is not what one religion's followers follow - that is a ritual; a law is that which crashes all borders and is accepted even in an enemies' institutions [think, Hebrew laws], to the extent those who do not follow those laws are regarded outside the law. 'NAMES' are not laws. Christianity and Islam have been given all the lands, resources and substance - but no 'LAWS' - yet they throw away all their gifts and focus only on a tiny, miniscule people and land. Why so -will the king kongs beat their chests boasting how they prevailed a mosquito - and what happens when they must now face each other? It begs the Q who are the real vctims here.
quote: No sir. The manifest situation is that we know nothing about origins of anything whatsoever [read, Genesis is right!]. The first alphabet is barred; Genesis begins with the second alphabet - it is shaped like a square with only the GO FORTH [look not behind] forward facet open. All else is open to us and emerging only in its exacting due time. This is vindicated today: we know everything about pineapples - except the origins of a pineapple. It should suffice us, but given the chance we will drop all the gifts and reach only for the unknown: this is what the Adam and Eve story metaphorically symbolizes: damn all the rest - go for the forbidden. It appears a great masterminded strategy to keep us all sucked in and searching for we don't know what. Brilliant, no? Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Christianity says the Messiah came, went away and will come again. Judaism says 'nix' - no Messiah came but will one day.
The above scenario says if a Messiah does come forth, he can greet us in one of two ways: "HELLO! HOW NICE TO MEET YOU AGAIN!" - This would mean all Jews must apologise to Christians. Agreed. Or! "HELLO! HOW NICE TO MEET YOU!" - This would mean all Christians must apologise to the Jews. Obviously, none today are disbelievers - all would kill and give their lives for their doctrines. But why not leave it at that - unresolved and wait and see? Why kill each other off now? - how will that make us see the light? IMHO, the Hebrew wins - a mysterious force has made Christianity afflicted with Islam as the response, resulting in two plaintiffs in mutually exclusive mode of their attacks on the Hebrew bible. One says the red car which belonged to another is now theirs; the other says the green truck which was corrupted by others is now theirs. I say, come, let us reason together - there is no red car or green truck anywhere to be found! A Messiah may not necessarily say what you like to hear - he/she may even ask some un-anticipated questions not attended in the Gospels or Quran. He may well say BORN OF SIN applies if your parents remained silent of the Balfour's crruption, for example. Or that a non-virtual Judas is one who threw the Jews under the bus for 30 barrels of oil. He may even ask - EGAD! - which is the homeland of the Jews? We all have to practice our answers to bad questions by a Messiah.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.
You should start a thread listing laws in the Gospels and/or Quran the world's institutions have accepted, rather than questioning me - I did this because you made posts ridiculing the Hebrew laws. Yes, check mate did apply seeing how there was no retraction and only continueing impudence. I listed about 50 magestic laws the world has accepted covering all faculties and over 20 animal rights laws exclusive to the Hebrew bible - all with reference numbers attached anyone can check up on. Its your turn now - start with one?
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Your mistaken. Atheists are also bound by the law.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: No sir. Rituals are different to laws. A law happens with the world's substantial institutions accept and enshrine a Commandment as LAW.
quote: No sir. One day per seven rest with pay is obligatory as a law. An employer as well as an employee has this right and it can be legally enforced. If you can't do it in six you won't do it better in 7; you shall not live by bread alone.
quote: Agreed you can. The point is you can also be convicted with a criminal record and end up behind bars. Its the law.
quote: Agreed you can. But if done loudly it can land you in prison for incitement and hateful speech.
quote: Ignorance of the law or your non-recognition of the law or being an atheist are not means of escape from the law.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Depending on the traditions of a country, a law can be adjusted with qualifications, becoming 'derivitives' of the law. Traditions may transcend in certain instances, a premise sanctioned by the law.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: This extends to refusing to be a witness; a crime: Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82). Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). That one who possesses evidence shall testify in Court (Lev. 5:1) (affirmative). Not to testify falsely (Ex. 20:13) (CCN39). That a witness, who has testified in a capital case, shall not lay down the law in that particular case (Num. 35:30) (negative). That a transgressor shall not testify (Ex. 23:1) (CCN75). That the court shall not accept the testimony of a close relative of the defendant in matters of capital punishment (Deut. 24:16) (CCN74). Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1) (CCN65). To examine witnesses thoroughly (Deut. 13:15) (affirmative). Not to decide a case on the evidence of a single witness (Deut. 19:15) (CCN73).
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: I see 'LAWS' as the primal factor concerning the issue of free will.
quote: I love christians. Hate is not addressing hateful inculcations passed on as belief: calling others as born of the devil and/or ape is a testing of all Christians and Muslims credibility, its rejection is being respresented to all humanity to consider as an evil premise - aside from its contradiction of the book of laws. Honesty is the first of all moral/ethical laws; obedience to evil is an evil inclination. AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT BEATS A DISHONEST AGREEMENT.
quote: It's not a law and contradicts the Hebrew bible - don't even try, applies. If one turns the other cheeck to evil deeds it is a crime and in direct contradiction of God's laws. This has been seen throughout European Christianity's history, most recently in W.W.II with the VE VERE NOT AVARE syndrome and the turning of the cheek when the Balfour Declration was corrupted - all Christians remained silent. You cannot guarantee that TURNING THE CHEECK cannot be abused - the reason it is not seen in the Hebrew magestic laws: if a mad dog is chasing you with the limbs of your kin in its jaws - turning the cheeck is a crime!
quote: Absolutely you have not demonstrated your case. Check your histrical record!
quote: Mercy, love, forgiveness and everlasting kindness is not from the NT but the Hebrew bible. Conditions apply.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Agreed you are not bound by ritual laws [adherence to names, festivals, dietary laws, etc]; but you are bound to moral/ethical/judiciary commandments which have been accepted as LAW. All such Hebrew laws [non-ritual] are accepted as the LAW - comprehensively and exclusively seen in the Hebrew bible. Thus far there has been one Hebrew law being debated and in certain states overturned, namely the laws relating to Gays. However this is not a moral/ethical law as much as it is an existential law: if 20% of the human pop goes gay, humanity will not survive after a few generations. It's other problem is that it impacts the laws relating to incest: one cannot dismiss incest if gay laws are passed: both positing mutual acceptence provisions and not hurting others, etc. It will then be a crime if you do not attend the celebration of a birth of your 50 year old male neighbour and his 25 year old biological daughter. Its a hot potato, the point being a choice between 100% disaster ahead or some compromises applied.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Of course there are absolutes, its validity not depending on one's subjectives thoughts, but what is manifest over long periods of time. Absolutes: THE SUN SHALL RISE TOMORROW WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE FROM YOU. These are not absolutes: NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME. NO GOD W/O MOHAMMED AS HIS PROPHET. JEWS ARE BORN OF THE DEVIL AND/OR APES.
quote: Yes I realize this as applying to most Christians today [at least after post-W.W.II and applying mainly outside European inculcated theology] - and still disagree it is a bona fide law. You ignore how that premise has been mis-used throughout European Christian history, causing the murder of millions of innocent folk - precisely because of turning the cheek. Newton's Law applies.
quote: As I said, Jews have an obligation to correct Christianity, which accepted and took on board the Hebrew bible as having equal validity of the NT: but all theologies cannot be equally right - they contradict each other. Best I can do is be honest with you: AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT BEATS A DISHONEST AGREEMENT.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: No, your distinction, still bent on ridicule, is itself ridiculous. Rituals are applicable only to specifically directed people for specifically directed reasons and prefixed 'unto you'; mostly these serve as funny uniforms for postmen and reminder ceremonies. Thus it is not a violation if a Christian consumes pork, for example, this ritual was not given them.
quote: NOT TO MURDER is the correct translation. Obviously, you have not read and considered all the laws: a soldier is condoned by other laws of national defense and not inter-related as in your portrayal.
quote: You can work yourself ever second of your life. But the law of 1 day of rest with pay stands, whether it is maintained on a sunday or a friday does not matter here. Why are you argueing what is blatant?
quote: You can - which is different from being good to do. A cost factor can apply even in hidden thoughts: if left unchecked, it will graduate to and constitute coveting [stalking] which is a crime; or even worse. Would you be upset if another coveted your loved one, you remained indifferent, then it becomes more serious? This is like the command to wash the hands before meals - it can save lives, and has been accepted as a law in the medical world some 250 years ago. How amazing this was made a mandated law 3,500 years ago!
quote: This 3rd C from Sinai refers to honesty and not to violate one's word or contract, which all laws depend upon. It is correctly placed at the top of all moral, ethical laws.
quote: Just as the term species was adapted from the word 'kinds' in Genesis, you should replace the term commandment with law today. Atheists are subject to the law of the land.
quote: 4th; 10th; 3rd of the 10Cs; respectively. Is this a test?
quote: Yes you would be breaking the law. Check with your local sherriff if in doubt. Ask him if atheists are immune.
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