Prophecy vs Free will

Right."Know for a surety your seed shall be in bondage." If you also apply some insight, this was said before the Jewish nation was born, to Abram, before he even had a seed. Obviously, one cannot sin before they are born, making the charge applicable to the burden of monotheism and incur the wrath of divine king nations. That is precisely what occured.

LOL. Jews happen to be the only nation in the middle-east which prevailed. Please show me the verse where it says what you post! My version says they will be returned via a small remnant. You cannot write your own versions and leave out all actual prophesies.

Yes:
"We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected JC"
- Pope not so Pius at the helm of Europe's holocaust. Does it mean Christianity must be taken over by Muslims because they rejected Mohammed - or does your logic only apply to Jews?

These people do not exist. The Gospels never existed at this time. The notion of Gospels according to Mathew, affirms only someone else is writing it. We are not even told the author and it is subscribed to one without a second name. Have you seriously not wondered why we do not have a shred of Hebrew Gospels, or one of Greek of its time - even with so many alledged writers?The history concerning those events however did exist at that time. All from Wiki, so as to not be accused of advocating apologeticsAll from WikiTacitus on Christ[qs/]The passage, which has been subjected to much scholarly analysis, follows a description of the six-day fire that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD and was thought by some Romans to have been set by Emperor Nero himself.[2]Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Juda, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.[4]Pliny the Younger. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions Christus, without many historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. (According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus".[78][79] Mention in Acts of "After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome."
Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived."[80][81][edit] Pliny the Younger
Pliny the Younger (c. 61 - c. 112), the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus".Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshiped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.[82]
Charles Guignebert, who does not doubt that Jesus of the Gospels lived in Gallilee in the 1st century, nevertheless dismisses this letter as acceptable historical evidence: "Only the most robust credulity could reckon this assertion as admissible evidence for the historicity of Jesus"[83][edit] Tacitus
Main article: Tacitus on ChristTacitus (c. 56—c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah". In describing Nero's persecution of this group following the Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.[84]There have been suggestions that this was a Christian interpolation but most scholars conclude that the passage was written by Tacitus.[85] For example, R. E. Van Voorst noted the improbability that later Christians would have interpolated "such disparaging remarks about Christianity".[86]There is disagreement about what this passage proves, since Tacitus does not reveal the source of his information.[87] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote that: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."[88]Tacitus may have used official sources from a Roman archive. Tacitus drew on many earlier historical works now lost to us in the Annals. The description of the suppression of Christianity, calling it a superstition for instance, is not based on any statements Christians may have made to Tacitus. However, if Tacitus was copying from an official source some would expect him to not incorrectly label Pilate a procurator, as he was a prefect.[89]
Charles Guignebert argued "So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless".[90]
R. T. France concludes that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he has heard through Christians.[91][92]Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz conclude that Tacitus gives us a description of widespread prejudices about Christianity and a few precise details about "Christus" and Christianity, the source of which remains unclear. Christus was a Jew and a criminal whom Pontius Pilate had executed. He authored a new religious movement that began in Judea and was called Christianity which was widespread around the city of Rome during Nero's reign.[93]
[edit] Suetonius
Main article: Suetonius on Christ
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (c. 69—140) wrote the following in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars about riots which broke out in the Jewish community in Rome under the emperor Claudius:
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [ Claudius ] expelled them [the Jews] from Rome".[94]
The event was noted in Acts 18:2. The term Chrestus also appears in some later texts applied to Jesus, and Robert Graves,[95] among others,[96] consider it a variant spelling of Christ, or at least a reasonable spelling error. On the other hand, Chrestus was itself a common name, particularly for slaves, meaning good or useful.[97] With regard to Jewish persecution around the time to which this passage refers, the Jewish Encyclopedia states: "... in 49—50, in consequence of dissensions among them regarding the arrival of the Messiah, they were forbidden to hold religious services. The leaders in the controversy, and many others of the Jewish citizens, left the city".[98]
Another suggestion as to why Chrestus may not be Christ is based on the fact Suetonius refers to Jews not Christians in this passage, even though in his Life of Nero he shows some knowledge of the sect's existence. One solution to this problem, however, lies in the fact that the early Christians had not yet separated from their Jewish origin at this time.[99][100][101] Even discounting all these points, this passage offers little information about Jesus himself.[88]
Mara bar Sarapion
Mara was a Syrian Stoic.[120] While imprisoned by the Romans, Mara wrote a letter to his son that includes the following text:
For what benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death, seeing that they received as retribution for it famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, seeing that in one hour the whole of their country was covered with sand? Or the Jews by the murder of their Wise King, seeing that from that very time their kingdom was driven away from them? For with justice did God grant a recompense to the wisdom of all three of them. For the Athenians died by famine; and the people of Samos were covered by the sea without remedy; and the Jews, brought to desolation and expelled from their kingdom, are driven away into every land. Nay, Socrates did not die, because of Plato; nor yet Pythagoras, because of the statue of Hera; nor yet the Wise King, because of the new laws which he enacted.[121]
Composed sometime between 73 AD and the 3rd century, some scholars believe this describes the fall of Jerusalem as the gods' punishment for the Jews having killed Jesus because they infer that Jesus must be "the wise king" referred to by Mara.[120]
[edit] The Talmud
See also: Jesus in the Talmud and Yeshu
The Babylonian Talmud in a few rare instances likely or possibly refers to Jesus using the terms "Yeshu," "Yeshu ha-Notzri," "ben Satda," and "ben Pandera." These references probably date back to the Tannaitic period (70—200 CE).[120] One important reference relates the trial and execution of Jesus and his disciples.[120] It includes this text:
It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and God said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him." Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.[122]
These early possible references to Jesus have little historical information independent from the gospels, but they do seem to reflect the historical Jesus as a man who had disciples and was crucified during Passover.[120] They reflect hostility toward Jesus among the rabbis.[120] The story of Jesus' trial asserts that Jesus was guilty of a capital crime, and defends the court against the early Christian criticism that Jesus' trial had been hasty.[120] Another aspect of this record is that it varies dramatically from the records in the gospels. Instead of twelve disciples, there are only five, and only one name, that of Matai, even resembles those of the disciples in the gospels. Other differences include hanging instead of crucifixion, a call for witnesses to his defense and the disciples all being sentenced to death after their own trials.
It is taught: Yeshu had five disciples - Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah. They brought Matai [before the judges]. He said to them: Will Matai be killed? It is written (Psalm 42:2) "When [=Matai] shall (I) come and appear before God." They said to him: Yes, Matai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 41:5) "When [=Matai] shall (he) die and his name perish." They brought Nekai. He said to them: Will Nekai be killed? It is written (Exodus 23:7) "The innocent [=Naki] and the righteous you shall not slay." They said to him: Yes, Nekai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 10:8) "In secret places he slay the innocent [=Naki]." They brought Netzer. He said to them: Will Netzer be killed? It is written (Isaiah 11:1) "A branch [=Netzer] shall spring up from his roots." They said to him: Yes, Netzer will be killed as it is written (Isaiah 14:19) "You are cast forth out of your grave like an abominable branch [=Netzer]." They brought Buni. He said to them: Will Buni be killed? It is written (Exodus 4:22) "My son [=Beni], my firstborn, Israel." They said to him: Yes, Buni will be killed as it is written (Exodus 4:23) "Behold, I slay your son [=Bincha] your firstborn." They brought Todah. He said to them: Will Todah be killed? It is written (Psalm 100:1) "A Psalm for thanksgiving [=Todah]." They said to him: Yes, Todah will be killed as it is written (Psalm 50:23) "Whoever sacrifices thanksgiving [=Todah] honors me."[122]
Scholars who promote the conclusion that Jesus is a myth sometimes use this early rabbinic literature to argue that the Jesus stories of the gospels derive from a Jewish teacher in the 1st or 2nd century BCE.[123]
Louis Jacobs writes that Jewish "attitudes towards the personality of Jesus, and on how Jews should view Jesus from the point of view of Judaism, vary from the belief that Jesus is not a historical figure at all to the acceptance of Jesus as an ancient Jewish ‘Rabbi’ or profound ethical teacher, a view rejected by all Orthodox Jews and by many Reform Jews. The whole question is befogged by the impossibility of disentangling the historical Jesus from the Jesus of Paul and the Synoptic Gospels, and by the central role that Jesus occupies in the Christian religion."[124]
[edit] Dead Sea Scrolls
Main article: Dead Sea ScrollsThe Dead Sea scrolls are first century or older writings that show the language and customs of some Jews of Jesus' time.[125] According to clergyman and New Testament scholar Henry Chadwick, similar uses of languages and viewpoints recorded in the New testament and the Dead Sea scrolls are valuable in showing that the New Testament portrays the first century period that it reports and is not a product of a later period.[126][127]
[edit] OthersThallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan War to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is one reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus, mentioned Thallus. Thus:On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.[128]Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[129]Celsus wrote, about 180, a book against the Christians, which is now only known through Origen's refutation of it. Celsus apparently accused Jesus of being a magician and a sorcerer[130] and is quoted as saying that Jesus was a "mere man".[131] F. F. Bruce noted that Celsus, in seeking to discredit Jesus, sought to explain his miracles rather than claim they never occurred.[132]The Acts of Pilate is purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentarii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus. He said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate".[133] With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Roman Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.[134] There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, and though it is generally thought to have been inspired by Justin's reference (and thus to post-date his Apology), it is possible that Justin mentioned this text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.[135]Ancient Christian creedsMain article: Creed
The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes quote from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their writings. Scholars believe that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.[167] Though embedded within the texts of the New Testament, these creeds are a distinct source for Early Christianity.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4[168] reads: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.[169] The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.[170] Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, "This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,"[171] whilst A. M. Hunter said, "The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony. It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability."[172]Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found[173] that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:[174] "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God",[175][176] "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel",[177] Romans|1:3-4:[178] "regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.",[179] and 1 Timothy 3:16:[180] "He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory," an early creedal hymn.[181]

The Roman archives of Tacitus, Apion, etc are loaded with descriptions of minute events with the Jews in Judea

There is no scripture with equivalent validity.

Its time that Christians and Muslims ceased being 'subject to Jews' belief systems, knock out all the thrash about Jews and raise your own beliefs as able to stand on its own.

The only vindicated, provable prophey the last 2000 years is in the Hebrew bible and the dead sea scrolls. I am on the side of Christianity - but not in the mode Christians mean - that points to more disaster ahead for humanity waiting to hapen, and its got nothing to do with Jews, but only between:
NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME.
And
ITS A BLESSING TO KILL THE INFIDELS.

It is a most valid statement which displays true vindicated prophesy. You have not given any such equivalence.

This has no alignment with prophesy. All Hebrew prophets were rebelous, but in a positive way. They were tested and they challenged Gd. They never acted as thoughtless sheap, perhaps the reason they were focused on. The Israelites were correct and right for demanding proof from Moses; the Europeans were not "

Simply put, it was not Gd but Europe who did the evil deeds.

My half brain says you are quoting a writings which was made long after the fact

Tell me if Islam is emulating Christianity and who, if any, is right:

No.

And to hell with those bad Jews! However, it seems someone else had the same idea, and destroyed the church and dumped a mosqie on it. Knock-knock! Try these for size:THOU SHALL NOT STEAL.THOU SHALL NOT COVET WHAT IS NOT YOURS.THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.I can also quote a host of other magestic laws which does not appear on your radar. Does Islam have the same right as Christians, or will you knock off the mosque after you eliminate the Jews from their land? Its a wonderful future ahead for humanity - thanks to two big kings who make up any beliefs they like, and cancel any that come in the way. Who's next?

The oral tradition was rejected by Christianity. It contains stuff directly from Moses, but which does not sit well with you.

You see, laws and verses which have become so sacred to Christians and to Muslims, are after all said and done given with only one purpose: as a testing, to see how you will turn. Like Abraham, or like all the above you are so proud of - fostering the genocide of a 4,000 year nation as your entire claim to fame, and even boasting of it?

Did you ask "Did Christ prophesy come to pass?"
I responded "No."How is that not responding?

And by now I would have though you would realize I don't wander down even attractive rabbit holes.

Find one of the threads or post whichever prophecy you think can be supported.

Paul was thrown out, Christianity only flouroushed centuries later, by enforcement and the rake, and none demanding proof. This is why you cannot put a shred of evidence of the claims made in the Gospels which you post here: read, its a total lie.

Call me when you come up with a Christian dead sea scrolls in Hebrew by any of the 12 alledged apostles. A Messiah will demand this of you!

So as usual you do not respond but just try to change the subject.

Harbouring such false insanities has a cost factor. Your so-called prophesy that a church will stand in Jerusalem and Christianity spread large

Most of all, you cannot prove that writings was made prior to the 4th Century. You have not a shred of dead sea Gospel scrolls.

Well, the Christian Church is certainly not any prophecy made by Jesus.
It is the creation of Paul.

But if you wish to pick a specific prophecy then list the chapter and verse and we will take a look at it and see if it can be supported.