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Author
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Topic: When does human life begin?
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 274 of 327 (650954)
02-03-2012 3:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 233 by Perdition
02-01-2012 12:38 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Perdition writes:
But while the fetus is dependent on the mother for survival, it would seem to fail this part of the definition, would it not. Not to mention, until differentiation, there are no different organs, again failing this part. At best, it would seem that the fetus is a part of the mother, meaning she can have it removed, if she wants. She cites that definiton to support the position distinguishing a zygot, a human being, from a collection of cells types that are alive but perform certain functions but are not organisms because they do not perform coordinated interactions directed towards any higher level of organization, as the zygote does that continues until death.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 233 by Perdition, posted 02-01-2012 12:38 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: Previous thread/s
hooah writes:
What's juvenile about pointing out your absurd notion of "praying" for a single cell? I think your "praying" is the absurd bit. Perhaps even more absurd is thinking you'll acknowledge how ridiculous you sound saying you pray for zygotes and hope they are "in a better place". If they are in fact human beings may I pray for them?
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
So: Do you consider yourself to be a corpse right now on the basis that your biology determines that that will be the case in the future? Yes or no? A corpse is not a human being, so no I do not consider myself to be a corpse.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 243 by bluegenes, posted 02-01-2012 8:12 PM | | bluegenes has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 278 of 327 (650961)
02-03-2012 3:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 244 by Meddle
02-01-2012 9:27 PM
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She cites that definiton to support the posiRe: So what was the point of this thread?
Malcolm writes:
Well as I said it does contain human DNA, so ultimately over many generations these local interactions will lay down the tissues that can be collectively called a human. The point I was trying to make was that these interactions are not significantly different from the interactions in the cells of an adult in maintaining the human body which has developed, such as the germinal layer of the epidermis giving rise to new skin cells, or haematopoietic stem cells multiplying to produce the various blood cells. She cites that definiton to support the position distinguishing a zygot, a human being, from a collection of cells types that are alive but perform certain functions but are not organisms because they do not perform coordinated interactions directed towards any higher level of organization, as the zygote does that continues until death. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 244 by Meddle, posted 02-01-2012 9:27 PM | | Meddle has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 279 of 327 (650964)
02-03-2012 3:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 223 by Meddle
01-31-2012 6:17 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Malcolm writes:
Finally I'll leave you with this scenario to consider. A woman is pregnant with a child when she is diagnosed with cancer. Due to the nature of chemotherapeutic drugs it is most likely that the foetus will die, but carrying it to term will be too late for the cancer to be effectively treated. In your view who is more important in this scenario, who makes the decisions? If the fetus is not able to be taken by C-Section then If the mother wishes to be treated she should be treated. She is not intentionally destroying the fetus and there is also the chance if she is not treated she may not live to deliver the baby. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 223 by Meddle, posted 01-31-2012 6:17 PM | | Meddle has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
Good. So, we can agree that because something is in the process of transforming into something else, it is not that something else until the transformation has taken place. And that applies when the transformation is inevitable A corpse is not a human being. It has ceased to be. So the analogy is not revelant. The human being is transformed into different stages with labels such as zygot, child, adult ect. but it is still the same organism. So no we don't agree on that.
bluegenes from previous message writes:
Something can't become what it already is. Presumably you mean at what stage in the human life cycle does a human being emerge. Scientifically, there's no consensus, and it's very difficult to see how there could be one. IMO, we don't have a very good definition of what we are. If we can't rigorously define a "person" and list all the attributes it should have, then how can we decide on a precise time in the cycle? Some of the most important things, like our conscious awareness of the world, don't actually seem to be there in new born babies, who act very much instinctively. But the person seems to start to emerge during the first few months. So, the closest I can say as a tentative personal suggestion is during the first few months after birth. But wherever we fix it, it's rather arbitrary. I have a question in re your personal view as to when a human being emerges. How does that viewpoint affect when you believe an abortion can be performed morally, not legally?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 281 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2012 5:41 PM | | bluegenes has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
Good. So, we can agree that because something is in the process of transforming into something else, it is not that something else until the transformation has taken place. And that applies when the transformation is inevitable A corpse is not a human being. It has ceased to be. So the analogy is not revelant. The human being is transformed into different stages with laels such as zygot, child, adult ect. but it is still the same organism. So no we don't agree on that.
bluegenes from previous message writes:
Something can't become what it already is. Presumably you mean at what stage in the human life cycle does a human being emerge. Scientifically, there's no consensus, and it's very difficult to see how there could be one. IMO, we don't have a very good definition of what we are. If we can't rigorously define a "person" and list all the attributes it should have, then how can we decide on a precise time in the cycle? Some of the most important things, like our conscious awareness of the world, don't actually seem to be there in new born babies, who act very much instinctively. But the person seems to start to emerge during the first few months. So, the closest I can say as a tentative personal suggestion is during the first few months after birth. But wherever we fix it, it's rather arbitrary. I have a question in re your personal view as to when a human being emerges. How does that viewpoint affect when you believe an abortion can be performed morally, not legally? Sorry I somehow posted it twice. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 281 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2012 5:41 PM | | bluegenes has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: Previous thread/s
hooah writes:
you are free to "pray" for whatever you want. I am just pointing out that it is a futile and deceiptful effort given that a zygote is not a human being but rather a single cell. I guess we have to agree to disagree on that point. But why is it deceiptful?
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 286 of 327 (651189)
02-05-2012 10:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 285 by bluegenes
02-04-2012 4:08 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
I'd say very broadly speaking that we should try to avoid killing sentient people. That is persons with personalities. I don't think abortions can technically be performed on such things. Just so I am clear, can a human being be sentient while in the womb?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 285 by bluegenes, posted 02-04-2012 4:08 PM | | bluegenes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 287 by jar, posted 02-05-2012 11:12 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 288 by bluegenes, posted 02-05-2012 11:18 AM | | shadow71 has replied | | | Message 289 by Coragyps, posted 02-05-2012 11:41 AM | | shadow71 has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 290 of 327 (651199)
02-05-2012 1:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 288 by bluegenes
02-05-2012 11:18 AM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
I'd say very broadly speaking that we should try to avoid killing sentient people. That is persons with personalities. I don't think abortions can technically be performed on such things. bluegenes writes:
That question might trigger a long discussion on the meaning of sentient. How do you define sentient as written in your post above? Would your definition include a fetus in the womb?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 288 by bluegenes, posted 02-05-2012 11:18 AM | | bluegenes has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
I'd say very broadly speaking that we should try to avoid killing sentient people. That is persons with personalities. I don't think abortions can technically be performed on such things. Theodoric writes:
You brought up sentient. You provide the definition you mean. Look at bluegene's post above. That was the first time sentient was mentioned. I then merely asked him to define what he meant by the term. Besides, what is the problem? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 292 by Theodoric, posted 02-05-2012 2:55 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 294 by Kairyu, posted 02-05-2012 5:50 PM | | shadow71 has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 298 of 327 (651332)
02-06-2012 2:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 289 by Coragyps
02-05-2012 11:41 AM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
coragyps writes:
I don't know. Can a two-day-old anencephalic baby be sentient with no forebrain? I was asking bluegenes a question based upon one of his posts. I imagine that such a baby could be sentient in some way, but I don't know.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 289 by Coragyps, posted 02-05-2012 11:41 AM | | Coragyps has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Perdition writes:
What is the difference between a single-celled blastocyst and a stem cell in my bone marrow? Both are single cells, both can create multiple different cells that are necessary for "higher organization." A zygote has all the information necessary for the full growth of the organism. A stem cell in your bone marrow will make only stem cells for your marrow.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 277 by Perdition, posted 02-03-2012 3:36 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 300 of 327 (651338)
02-06-2012 2:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 294 by Kairyu
02-05-2012 5:50 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
wsw24 writes:
Can you make any conclusions with the discussed matter Shadow? In which phase do you define personhood and sentience? And if the soul is part of the answers, the problem of the zygote death rate arises once again. Or do you solely base your stance against abortion on the fact a zygote may develop into a human. I have stated in this thread that I believe the zygote is a human being and I cited the paper by Dr. Maureen L Condic for the scientific basis for this opinion. In re sentience, I agree with James A. Shapiro a prof at the Univ. of Chicago in the dept. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, who has stated single cells have some degree of sentience. Dr. Shapiro has written a book "Evolution: a view from the 21st Century" where he sets forth his theories. There is also a extensive comments about Dr. Shapiro and his work in the Forum Biological Evolution in the Thread entitled "Does the darwianian theory require modification or replacement." The Thread is closed but if you wish you can review it. I base my opposition to abortion on my opinion that it takes the life of a human being, and I consider a zygote to be a human being and thus it has a soul. That is my moral and religious belief.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 294 by Kairyu, posted 02-05-2012 5:50 PM | | Kairyu has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 309 of 327 (651409)
02-07-2012 12:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 301 by Straggler
02-06-2012 3:04 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Straggler writes:
Do you think bacteria are sentient? Yes I do. A good example is the CRISPR system that prevents virus replication in some bacteria.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 301 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2012 3:04 PM | | Straggler has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 310 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2012 12:21 PM | | shadow71 has not replied |
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