Have You Ever Read Ephesians?

It is quite evident that Paul taught Timothy and Titus and others to teach the same things as he taught. So that others wrote sounding like Paul is certainly the case.Why could not some also imitate Paul's consecration, integrity, forthrightness as well ?As Paul would not write a letter pretending to be Peter because such would be dishonest, so also other workers could not allow themselves to pretend to be Paul.I heard a lecture on by one Bart Erhman claiming that imitation and forgery was somehow a typical and acceptable activity in the early era of the church. At first I assumed Dr. Erhman must know and therefore be trusted on this.Lately, I have had a change of heart. Wait a minute. Lying is immoral. Does Erhman mean lying was okay then and only has become immoral in latter centries ?I write to you pretending to be someone that I am not. And this is typical and acceptable. This is the line proposed by Dr. Erhman. Now I have second thoughts about this.

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God..."

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"Therefore I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you ..."

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"I ... do not cease giving thanks for you making mention of you in my prayers ..."

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"For this cause, I PAUL, the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you, the Gentiles - if you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you...

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... by revelation the mystery was made known to me ... in reading it you may perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ ...

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I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God which was given to me according to the operation of His power ... to me less than the least of all saints ...Therefore I ask you not to faint at my afflictions for your sake, since they are your glory.

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For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father ...
I beseech you therefore ...
This therefore I say and testify in the Lord ... Is all this written suppose to be the writings of an imposter, deceiving, impersonating ?Then this unknown tricksters exhorts -
" If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus ...
Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth ...
... be renewed in the spirit of your mind ...
Put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality
Be imitators of God as beloved children ..." All this is imagined to be play acting. The imposter pens away trying his best to sound like Paul so that the readers will not know that Paul is not the actual author. "Let no one deceive you with vain words ..." writes the liar. A liar, I say, because he is NOT actually "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus ..." however talented or useful he may have been in his own right.And the imposter further writes: "For the things which are done by them in secret it is shameful even to speak of." while in secret the imposter puts on his best imitation in falsehood. "This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church ..." he writes. But the "I" is an imitator of the apostle. " ... by means of all prayer and petition ... and for me [to pray] that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known in boldness the mystery of the gospel." Remember, this is suppose to be a liar, a fraud. He needs prayer not that he be a better impersonator but that he be bold in speaking forth the gospel of Christ. "For I am an ambassador in a chain [LIES supposedly], that in it I would speak boldly [LYING that is], as I ought to speak." And just to make the forgery really believable the imposter adds - "But that you also may know that things concerning me, how I am doing, Tychicus, the beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make all things known to you.

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Him I have sent to you for this very thing, that you may know the things concerning us and that he may comfort your hearts." That is to comfort your hearts with deceptions, lies, imitations, forgeries, conspiracies ... all very comforting.I submit that the conspiracy of a fake Ephesians epistle is as ridiculous as "The Passover Plot" and a non-dead, swooning Jesus, imitating a resurrection. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am aware that presidents use speech writers. Usually the final decision of what is said is made by the president.I am aware that publishers of music in Mozart's and Haydn's day, in order to SELL a piece of music, might attribute it to one of the popular composers as a facade (a marketing deception). This was sometimes considered flattery by the prospective unknown composer.And I agree that ghostwriters are hired.Paul was up front about writing a letter in coordination with someone else. Paul and Timothy, Paul and Sosthenes, etc. He gives us heads up when he is being assisted by a colleague. "I, Tertius who wrote this epistle, greet you in the Lord" chimes in one Tertius in Romans 16:22.Now you are asking me to step from this kind of coordination to ghostwriting in this sense:1.) Paul perhaps goes out and HIRES someone to write a letter in his name.I don't believe that the apostle Paul went out and hired a ghostwriter. I think this is reading modern day degraded Christianity into the early church life.You served God because you consecrated your life to God. You were not hired or fired. If you want to give your time and life to serve Jesus you did so in faith with no motive of compensation except in the kingdom of God.So the idea that a hired ghostwriter wrote Ephesians for monetary gain is not realistic to me.2.) How about some caring, sincere servant of God took it upon himself to ghostwrite for Paul apart from Paul's knowledge.However you look at this, this is a dishonest facade. To tell people that you are praying for them when perhaps you are only saying that to SOUND like the apostle Paul, should offend the Christian conscience.To ghostwrite and out of facade claim to be sending Tychicus to inform the audience of PAUL's well being is lying and concocting a facade however you look at it.Do you want me to believe that a ghostwriter said - "But that you also may know the things concerning me [PAUL], how I [PAUL] am doing, Tychicus, the beloeved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make all things known to you.

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Him have I sent to you for this very thing, that you may know the things concerning us and that he may comfort your hearts." Now let's get a grip on what you propose. Tychicus, when coming, in order to keep up the deception, must now LIE and pretend to have been sent by Paul. But actually a ghostwriter has arranged the entire charade. Does this make sense?So Tychicus, the "faithful minister in the Lord" must do a little unfaithful munipulating of the audience when he comes. He has to pretend that Paul has sent him when Paul has not. He must pretend to know about Paul condition when perhaps he doesn't know OR he doesn't know he is suppose to bring them up to date on Paul.I don't see how the Tychicus passages can be fake. And if the man Tychicus IS to visit and inform the audience, he has to be complicit in the charade.I think any ghostwriting theory about Ephesians had to have been apart from Paul's knowledge. I don't think the apostle would work that way. "Stand therefore, having your loins girded with TRUTH ..." (6:14) "Now, let me go out and hire myself a ghostwriter to pretend to be me."How do you factor in the compliance of one Tychicus when he is to arrive at Ephesus ? He is sent for the express purpose of informing them of Paul's well being. Are you saying Tychicus then, with a straight face, fills the audience in, all the while KNOWING that Paul had not sent him for the express purpose because the letter was a ghostwriter's facade ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The title of the article suggests the "scandal" involving something shady. Don't you think ?Guilt by association here purpledawn ?Benny Hinn, Dave Wilkerson, Norman Vincent Peale, Jerry Farwell, the 700 Club, AND the Apostle Paul too ?Reverend Ike, therefore Paul and John too ? All acted the same ?
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That is possible.At the public library I took out some lectures by Dr. Erhman "The Teaching Company" knowing nothing about who he was. I have since found out more about him. I don't know that work. The series of lectures I got was deeply involved with the Apochryphal writings. He's a good teacher, as all of the Teaching Company professors usually are.I remember one lecturer on Ancient Egypt I could hardly put away he was so fascinating. Back to Ephesians. Someone should describe to me just how the passages concerning Tychicus were to be acted out by Tychicus.Or was the Tychicus passage completely fiction ? Ephesians says "how the mystery was made known [to Paul] ... by revelation" (3:3). Those who read the letter can gain "insight into the mystery of Christ" (3:4) It is hard for me to imagine any deliberate imitation of this kind of phraseology without an intention to deceive rather than edify followers of Jesus Christ.Then the truth would be that the imitator did NOT receive anything by revelation. And the imitator is impersonating Paul.1.) I don't see why Paul would PAY to have someone do this.2.) I don't see why anyone who cared for the health of the church would embark to do this for pay, given the high morality of the letter's exhortations.3.) I don't see why anyone perceptive to know the spiritual wealth of such a writing would impersonate Paul thinking he was doing a favor to the disciples of Jesus.4.) I don't see how the impersonator could insight Tychicus to go along with his scheme expecting him to imitate a faithful minister of Christ Jesus.I could see someone competiting in rivalry with Paul. But in that case he would probably be teaching something else to tear down Paul's work.And First Corinthians and Romans contain so much of the same revelation as Ephesians.

You are wise not to try to convince me that First Corinthians on the church is fundamentally different from Ephesians on the church.As for you forgery theory - the bottom line is that you cannot prove that Paul did not write Ephesians. You cannot prove that Paul did not write First or Second Timothy - period.You can assert that you know he did not write it. But you don't know that. I will assert that you probably are wrong. You don't know that Paul was not the author - period.I can't prove you absolutely wrong in this.
Neither you, not purpledawn, nor Mr. Goodspeed can absolutely prove that Paul did not author Ephesians.And I think I should move on from this stage of the discussion and further use the other New Testament books to help getting into the depths of Ephesian's revelation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't think the concept proposed was that no one could write grammatically as well. I think what was implied that few had the depth of insight into the nature of God's economy as Paul.In Second Corinthians Paul is forced to defend his depth of wisdom concerning things in the universe. Matters about his personal experiences which he may have kept private for years he is forced by the skeptical Corinthians (bless their hearts) to speak of.In this forced boasting Paul tells us that he was caught away to realms that all of us living have not visited. I believe the third heavens was one. I believe Paradise was another place. He does not know if this was physically or in some kind of trance or "in spirit."At any rate Paul had a panoramic view of the highest and lowest spiritual realms. He heard things which he said is unlawful for humans to speak.The point here is that Paul had quite an extensive revelation. From these visions and revelations he wrote his letters. And that is one reason we have to take him as either a madman or just maybe telling us the honest truth.I choose to believe the latter. So for this reason I agree with Richh that his writing is unique.Now others who heard him could speak the same things. I can do that. But I know where I got it from. And I certainly would acknowledge where and from whom I learned these things.No, Paul was not the last eloquent preacher to expound the things of the New Testament. But he had a unique perspective.I have to go now.
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I don't recall your "resurrection in the now" deviation was being very well defined. It was demonstrated how the book of Romans speaks extensively of the resurrection of Jesus being applicable to the Christian's daily walk.Dismissing this evidence as "magic" in my exegisis was an inadaquate rebuttal. Ephesians says that the same power of God that raised Christ from the dead is operating in the saints. " ... what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead ..." (1:19) 1.) There is a mighty power operating in the believers in Christ. This power is "toward us who believe".2.) It is the very same divine power that operated in raising Christ from the dead.Surely this is something of the supernatural. But it is something of the daily supernatural. Maybe you never read the book of Acts. Perhaps you choose to ignore what Peter preached in the book of Acts.Peter 's first gospel message in Acts 2:21 -Verse 21 - "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Did you get that Jazzns? Everyone who calls out to the Lord Jesus shall be saved. They call in faith. They are saved by the Lord Jesus for their faith.How do I know that the Lord in Acts 2:21 is "the Lord Jesus" ? Peter says that God has made this Jesus both Lord and Christ. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this JESUS whom you have crucified." (Acts 2:36 my emphasis) Peter preaches justification by faith in Jesus in his first gospel message - "And Peter said to them, Repent and each one of you be baptized upon the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (2:38) The "GIFT of the Holy Spirit" is given because of identification with the atoning death and resurrection of Jesus.Then in Peter's second gospel message he speaks of the man saved by faith in the name of Jesus - Acts 3:16 - "And the Author of life you killed, whom God has raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. And upon faith in His name, His name has made this man strong, whom you behold and know; and the faith which is through Him has given him this wholeness [of health] before you all ... Repent therefore and turn, that your sins may be wiped away so that seasons of refreshing may come from the preence of the Lord and that He may send the Christ, who has been previously appointed for you, Jesus." The Author of divine life has been raised from the dead. Faith in His name, the name of the resurrected man - Jesus saves. We are to have faith and repent believing that His atoning death has cleansed us of our sins.As the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is given in the first message, here the "seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord" means exactly the same thing. Jesus the Lord is come to the repentent believers to have His invisible presence as a gift.In the council in Jerusalem Peter confirms toward the end of the deliberations that God has justified both Jew and Gentile by faith in Christ. "And when much discussion had taken place, Peter rose up and said ... Men, brothers, you know that from the early days God chose [from] among you that through my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe ... CLEANSING THEIR HEARTS BY FAITH " (See Acts 16:7-9 my emphasis) Peter continued - "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are saved in the same way also as they are." (v.11) Justification by faith was preached by Peter from the beginning of the church age. There was no reason for him to eventually "come around to the whole justified by faith thing." We do not need to "assume" or not, that Peter might have "come around" to justification by faith. We can see what Peter did in Acts.And Paul spoke of the applicable power of resurrection because he learned it by experience. He HAD to learn to depend upon the God who raises from the dead to overcome his many sore trials and tribulations as an apostle, as he writes in Second Corinthians - "Knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will make us stand before [Him] with you." (2 Cor. 4:14) "Indeed we ourselves had the response of death in ourselves, that we should not base our confidence on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead." (2 Cor. 1:9) As I said, Paul's teaching and Paul's experience were one. Here is a man who really taught what he LIVED. He taught all of the believers from the Scriptures, from the fellowship of the apostles, and from his extensive pioneering experience of living by and through Jesus Christ who was alive and available to man who believes, who receives Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

"To Walk in Newness of Life" means in the church age: The physical resurrection of the body is definitely a teaching of the New Testament, including Paul's epistles.This does not negate the fact that for the regenerated man to live in union with Christ is to enjoy in this age the resurrection life of Christ.To "WALK in newness of life" refers to the Christian walk, living in the church age. "Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

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We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through
the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:3,4) The phrase "walk in newness of life" is not restricted to after the resurrection of the physical body. It refers here to the daily walk of living in union with the available living Christ. To Grow Together with Him in Death and Resurrection means in the church age - This growth is transformation.
This growth is sanctification.
This growth is a process taking place in the church age: "For if we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection" (5:5) Growing with Christ in His death is allowing the denial of the self to deepen and spread and grow in more and more areas of the believers life. As the believers learns to die with Christ to himself in more areas he also learn to walk in newness of life in more and more areas. "IF .... we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection" Before the physical body is resurrected the soul is denied in union with Christ's death and renewed in oneness with Christ's resurrection life. This is during the church age.This could be thought of as both a reward in the present life and a reward after the second coming. IE. "Let no one take your crown". "No Longer Serve Sin as Slaves" in the present age: The normal (if not average) Christian life is that as the believer's grow they no longer serve sin as slaves in this life - "Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves." (6:6) This must be an experience of the present age before the resurrection of the physical body from the grave. Because Christ's death and resurrection are applicable today, the believers learn to no longer serve sin in the fallen body as slaves. The One within them is more powerful. Jesus IS NOW "The Resurrection and the Life" Finally it should be noted that Jesus taught that the resurrection was not relegated only to some future event. In addition He Himself is the resurrection and the life. "Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise again. Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day.

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Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life ..." (John 11:25a) Martha wanted to relegate the resurrection to only be an event in the last day at the end of history. Jesus corrected her and pointed out that the resurrection and the divine life was He Himself right there and then - " I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE ..."So Christian transformation, sanctification, conformation, and renewal of the fallen soul to a Christ expressing soul is all a matter of enjoying Christ in THIS AGE as the resurrection and the life.The book of Romans fully confirms this teaching of Jesus.
Ephesians elaborates further on this as we would expect. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

These two portions of Scripture very much mirror one another:Paul's Ephesians 4:13-16 and Christ's Mark 4:26-29 Mark 4:26-29 - "And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, and sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how he does not know.

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The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come."

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Ephesians 4:13-16 - "Until we all arrive at the oneness of the fiath and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a fullgrown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ ... we man be no longer children ... but holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,

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Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and [through] the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." The Mark passages speaks of the growth of a crop of vegetation.
The Ephesians passages speaks of growth of the Body of Christ.The Mark passage is the growing kingdom of God.
The Ephesians passage is the growth of the church as Christ's Body.The Mark passage is growth by the power of LIFE.
The Ephesians passage is the same. Christ's life growing in the Body of Christ causes the growth.The Mark passage speaks of growth unto a harvest of maturity.
The Ephesian passage is the maturing of all growing to arrive at a "full grown man" - at the meaure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.The Mark passage shows the kingdom of God is at every stage of the growth - the seed, the sprout, the lengthened sprout, the blade, the ear, the full grain in the ear. All stages are the kingdom of God.
The Ephesians passages shows that all stages of the growth are the church as the Body of Christ.The Mark passage is about the growing of seed in the earth.
The Ephesians passage is about the growing of Christ in the spiritual being of men and women.The Mark passages culminates in a angels reaping a crop of maturity.
The Ephesians passage does not speak of angels of rapture per se. However Ephesians chapter one speaks of the climax of "unto the redemption of the purchased possession" . This means a process with a view towards culiminating in the glorification of the physical body. Compare to Romans 8:23 - "awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." The Mark passage is about a process of growth through out time on earth. The Ephesian passage is also about a process of growth taking place during the church age.Life is the power behind the growth and maturity in both passages.
Life operates in the growing crop.
Life also operates in the growing Body of Christ.Here was can see how Paul in his own words reflects the teaching of Jesus in what is agreed by many as the earliest written Gospel - the Gospel of Mark.Here we see Christ's teaching and the Apostle Paul's faithful teaching in his own expressions of the same revelation. God's kingdom is a matter of His life being planted into people and growing in them for a corporate harvest of maturity.The Mark passage shows the maturity as a harvest of mature crops.
The Ephesian passage shows maturity as a corporate expression of all the constitutent individuals as ONE full grown aggregate Christ.How faithful was the Apostle Paul to the Lord Jesus!
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The church was mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 16 and 18. Matthew 16:18 - " And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

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And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens ..." Jesus prophesies then that He will have His church - "My church".Closely related to the Lord's church is the opening of the kingdom of the heavens. The [plural] "keys" were given to Peter. One key he used to let the Jews into the kingdom of the heavens at Pentecost (Acts 2). And the other key was used in Pater's message in Acts 10 to let the Gentiles into the kingdom of the heavens.Both "keys" relate to Jews and Gentiles coming into the church. And what Saul persecuted was the church (Acts 8:1,3)The church and the kingdom of the heavens are very closely related.Paul, as a representative normal Christian (if not average Christian) served God during the church age. Paul said that they served in newness of spirit, during the church age. This is in Paul's basic outline of the Christian Gospel - Romans. "But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter." (Romans 7:6) The serving in newness of spirit is also walking in newness of divine life. It is also the result of being a new creation through being placed in Christ. And it is before the physical resurrection. It is before the second coming of Christ that Paul serves in newness of spirit.To walk in newness of life is the result of one taking advantage of being in Christ through the church age salvation. Because if anyone is in Christ "there is a new creation". There can be a new walk because there is a new creation - "So then if anyone is in Christ, [he is] a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold they have become new." (2 Cor. 5:17) Being a new creation, one can now walk in newness of life. It is utterly wrong to teach that the Christians can only walk in newness of life after the resurrection of the body following the church age.It after the birth of the church in Jerusalem that the angel told the Apostles to go to the temple and speak all the words of this new divine life they had received - "Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life." (Acts 5:20) This was not after any physical resurrection of the apostle. The phrase "this life" refers to them having received Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Having new life in Christ they can walk in newness of life in Christ. It is the same today.Those then who had the new life - "this life" were people "added to the Lord" (Acts 2:27) and were also "added together" (Acts 2:47) . That is added together to the multitude, the church. It consisted only of those who were being saved - "And the Lord added together day by day those who were being saved." (2:37) 1.) To receive the Lord was to receive the divine life.
2.) To receive the Lord was to be added to the Lord.
3.) To receive the Lord was to partake of "this life".
4.) To be added to the Lord was to become a new creation.
5.) All those who became a new creation could go on to walk in newness of life, the divine life by which they were born again.
6.) All those walking in newnesss of life could serve God in newness of spirit.The church either as a local expression or as a universal entity was not the invention of latter generations of Christians. Both aspects, the local and the universal church, were predicted by the prophesy of Christ. And the prophecy began to be fulfilled as soon as men could receive Christ into them via the Holy Spirit. But your explanation is not strong enough to indicate that the walk in newness of life can only commence after the physical resurrection. Since growth and maturity is something Paul was in as well as all the other believers, he can speak of future growing in the likeness of His resurrection.You are saying that the walking in newness of life can ONLY commence following the physical resurrection. But this would contradict too much else what Paul wrote about the living victoriously in Christ during the church age.Resurrection begins within in the human spirit. Resurrection should commence as a power transforming the soul. Eventually resurrection is a power moving from center to circumference and reaching the outermost part of man - the physical body.The passage highlight the conditional - IF we have grown together in the likeness of His death we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. This speaks of our cooperation with His terminating power that we may benefit from His germinating power. And this exchange is not relagated only to the physical resurrection. "So also reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but living to God in Christ Jesus." (Rom. 6:11) That is in the church age "living to God in Christ Jesus". Of course living to God in Christ Jesus will continue after His second coming in the resurrection and rapture of the saints. But Paul has no intention that the Christians only wait to be living to God in Christ Jesus after the last advent. He totally means get started living to God in Christ Jesus immediately following salvation and baptism.The believes embark upon a life long process of sanctification. Paul was not completed in this process. And so he includes himself in humility - "WE ... might walk in newness of life ... WE ... will also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection". In the church age the believers are to walk in Christ, walk in newness of life, serve God in newness of spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) It will not be only after the physical resurrection that Paul serves God in his regenerated spirit. Rather in the church age he serves God in his regenerated spirit - "For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son ..." (Rom. 1:1) The time for the apostle to serve God in his Christ indwelt spirit for the Gospel is in this age. That is "whom I SERVE [presently, in the now] in my spirit." I must continue latter. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

So you are saying that the one who believes in Christ is expected to throw up his hands and continue to live under the power of sin ?You are saying then that there should be no difference in living in the believer until after the resurrection of the physical body ?Are you saying receiving Christ should result in no difference in the degree under which one is compelled to commit sins ?If you teach this way I would have to regard this as Crackpot Theology. This would be Christian Quackery.I wrote before and you apparently got no benefit from it. "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit.

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For those who are according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but those who are accroding to the spirit, the things of the Spirit." (Rom. 8:4,5) I admit that I am probably not being very kind to you here. But it would be Crackpot Christian teaching to suggest -1.) Christians should only mind the things of the Spirit AFTER the resurrection of the body.2.) Christians should walk according to the regenerated spirit only after the resurrection of the physical body.3.) Christians should should only be concerned for the righteous living after the resurrection of the physical body.4.) Christians should desire that no righeous requirement of the law be fulfilled in them until after the physical resurrection.5.) Being under grace means living the same kind of life as before one became a Christian - assuming no change is to occur until after the physical resurrection.6.) Regard that the benefit of the Holy Spirit is meaningless to the believer until the resurrection of the physical body.These are all crackpot concepts of a theological quackery which doesn't at all understand the New Testament.I am really sorry to put it this way. But I'll bear the responsibility before God for saying so in this way. What you propose makes no sense.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What "issue with primordial sin" ?Define your phrase "primordial sin" please ? There is nothing we can do. Christ has done something on our behalf. We can receive this Christ and benefit from His indwelling presence and His work. "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (Romans 8:1) At the time Paul is writing, in the church age, before the resurrection the saints, the apostle writes that the law of the Spirit of life HAS FREED him from the law of sin and of death.He does not say that in the future he will be freed. Today, he experiences the freedom from the law of sin and death because of the stronger law within him - the law of the Spirit of Christ's life.When Paul writes - For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death" do you regard him to be speaking of a future liberation ? I regard this properly. It is the present day liberation of a mature Christian disciple.He is writing to help lead other believers into the same enjoyment of liberation in Christ in the church age. There is no other way Romans 8:1 should be understood. "There is NOW ... NOW ... NOW ... no condemnation to those who are [NOW] in Christ Jesus" (8:1) He does not say that there WILL BE THEN no condemnation. He says there is no condemnation NOW.It is the normal Christian life that the believer be freed from the self condemnation which Paul previously spoke of in the immediately preceeding verse (7:24) - "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death ?" ( 7:24) He answers his own desperate question - "Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord ! (7:25a) This is the Jesus Christ in whom he is NOW in union with, indwelt with, mingled with in his innermost spirit.Now look at the entire verse 25 - "Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin." Do not be fooled. This does not mean that there is no liberation from the sinning power to the Christian before resurrection. What must take place to enjoy the freedom is elaborated on in chapter 8, namely to set the mind on the regenerated human spirit where the Spirit of life - the Spirit of Christ resides.Here is where Paul says the Spirit of Christ lives in the human spirit of the one born of God - "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God." (8:16) In the church age, the Spirit of Christ Who is the Spirit of life, bears witness within the believer that he is in an organic family relationship with the living God. That is Romans 8:16.Before verse 16 Paul exhorts the believer to WALK by this born again human spirit by setting the mind upon the regenerated spirit - "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do nit walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. For those who are according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but those who are according to the spirit, [mind] the things of the Spirit.

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For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (8:4-6) The sin nature is still in man. But its power is nullified by the regenerated person learning to set his or her mind on the innermost kernel of our spiritual being where the Spirit of Christ bears witness with the human spirit that God is the Christian's dear Father.This only makes sense if one is born of the Holy Spirit.
This only makes sense if one has received Christ.
For only to those who receive Christ does God grant theauthority to become children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who beleive into His name, to who were begotten ...God. " (See John 1:12,13) 1.) Christ has risen from the dead.
2.) Christ can be RECEIVED.
3.) To receive Christ is to believe into His name, ie. believe into His Person.
4.) All who believe into His name receive Him.
5.) To receive Him is a matter of a spiritual BIRTH - "who were begotten ... of God".6.) In being begotten of God, ie. born of God, is to be given by God authority to become children of God.
7.) The Holy Spirit bears witness with the human spirit of those born of God that they are indeed children of God.BIRTH of course is the initiation of life.
BIRTH is not the conclusion of this new life but its beginning.The maturing of this life involves learning to set the mind upon the regenerated spirit step by step. That is to walk according to the Spirit in the born again human spirit. That is in more and more and more areas of living to live according to the indwelling presence of Christ.This frees the man from self condemnation.
This frees the man in the church age.
This frees the man from the feeing of wretchedness of not being able to live righteously as the law demands.
This liberates because there is a stronger One living within the believer who has His own law of His life. He simply overcomes temptation and sinning PERIOD.No Christian is spontaneously fully mature upon becomming a Christian. But Paul says that we Christians would grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head - Christ. That is a process of gowth in the church age.Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.
And the process of successive levels of liberation is the transformation of the believer into the image of Christ - "And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. As the Spirit of the Lord enters chamber after chamber of our heart ( mind, emotion, will and conscience) He brings freedom to more and more of our soul from all that opposes God in us. " ... where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. " .There is a setting of the mind upon the regenerated spirit where the Lord Spirit is. Then there is the migrating of the Spirit of Christ out from the nucleus of our being into the soul and personality. As He spreads, as He permeates, as He migrates from center to circumference He transforms in a kind of "metabolic" way, our being into the image of Christ. "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18) As the Christian logs more time "beholding and reflecting" the glorious Christ indwelling him, he is transformed through time. That is he moves from one degree of expressing Christ, to another degree of expressing Christ, to another degree. to another degree - from glory to glory.From glory to glory. From glory to glory. From one degree of reflecting Jesus to another degree of reflecting Jesus. From one level to another level - from glory to glory to glory. This is transformation. And as we are being tranformed we are also experiencing deeper and deeper liberation from the sin nature.The spiritual birth, the receiving, the beholding, the witnessing, the setting the mind upon the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is are all activities during the church age. It is abnormal if the Christian is not in the enjoyment of these matters. No I am not. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. The idea is that the Spirit of the Lord should invade more and more areas of one's heart bringing freedom, bringing liberation from the sin nature. It IS an exhoration to keep the conscience void of offense and to experience life and peace. I may not be aware of in what way I sinned today. As I grow the inner light encreases. What seemed alright before I now must confess as sin and believe Chist's cleansing blood.In this cycle of confession and light growth takes place. No man knows all of his sinning when he first believes. He is justified forever in Christ's eternal redemption. But then he is to grow in expression. And in growth he becomes aware of those areas in which Christ needs to move into his soul.There is a blamelessness related to conscience which is related to one's relative growth and sensativity. Paul said that he exercised himself to have a conscience void of offense before God and man. Acts 24:16 - "Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience void of offense before God and man." Paul walked by the Spirit until he was aware of no offense between him and God or between him and any man. His conscience was exercised to remain clear and clean.This is not a matter of him being blameless in an absolute sense that he might be justified. He has been justified by Christ positionally forever. In his daily walk he matures to be aware of no offense to his knowledge in his conscience.This cleaness of conscience in his daily life deepens as he grows spiritually. No Christian is aware of all the areas in which he may still offend God. He is aware of some areas. Those he confesses and seeks to walk instead by the Spirit.In this way of growth he is to keep a conscience aware of not area in which he offends God or man. This is a life long matter of growth and maturity. This is not justification by living righteously. This is having been justified before God forever in position, he grows in disposition to be aware of not area of offending God in living.The righteous requirement being fulfilled by walking according to the Spirit is not for eternal redemption. It is for growth in expression once one has become a child of God.Obviously, just being BORN is not an end in itself.
Neither is just being eternally justified an end in itself.
The man born of God needs to grow to express Christ and grow up into Him in all things. This is a life long process of maturity.

Not only Paul knows that Christ can free men from sin in their day to day lives. Jesus Christ taught that the Son shall set the believers free and that they shall be free indeed. "Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. And the slave does not abide in the house forever, the son does abide forever. If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:35,36) Now I must speak of my personal experience as a disciple of Jesus. For over thirty years I have been in the process of being freed from sin. I do not dare boast the God is finished with me. I do not say that I can no longer commit sin.But I would be not honest if I did not inform you that, according to the teaching of the New Testament, I am in the process of sanctification. I am being freed from sinning - bit by bit as the ongoing life long sanctification of the Holy Spirit is working in me.Christ and his apostles radiantly taught this and expect this. And you should expect no less if you receive Christ as your Lord.Do not complain now that I am preaching. You should expect that Christ can make you free indeed. This is the normal Christian life. It may not be the average Christian life. But there are those who overcome and are not above the standard of normality. They are rather simply AT the standard of normality.If you do not believe that Christ can set the sinner free from sinning at least as an ongoing process of His ever deepening enfluence, then you do not believe in sanctification. Then you do not believe in transformation.But both are clearly teachings of the New Testament - "And do not be fashioned according to this age. but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2 my emphasis) " ... For just as you presented your members as slaves to uncleaness and lawlessness unto lawlessness, so NOW present your memvers as slaves of righteousness unto SANCTIFICATION." (Rom. 6:19 my emphasis) The normal Christian life is to be born again, baptized embarking on the life long process of sanctification and transformation. And this is certainly a entering into freedom from the power of sin.I beg you. If you have been taught otherwise, you need to stop and start studying the New Testament all over again. You have been taught wrongly.Have you ever read "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee ? You should take two months to read through this signal and monumental work on the normal (if not average) Christian experience. Yes. The nature of the fallen sinful man is still with the Christian. But we are able to nullify its effect and overcome by abiding in Christ. That is what you missed me adding.Continuing the quote I wrote: This is not my invention. This is Romans 5 through 8. This is elaborated on elsewhere also in the New Testament.Consider Paul as a PRIONEER in the Christian experience. He is one of many such pioneers and writers of the New Testament.It is not a matter of Paul reaching a sinless state of perfection. He has no such boast. But he forgets his past experiences both good and bad and he stretches forth to gain Christ more and more. " ... be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in CHrist, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith ... Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I persue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ.

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Brothers, I do not account myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

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I persue towards the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward. Let therefore, as many as are fullgrown have this mind ..." (See Phil. 3:11-15a)The mature Christian attitude is to keep growing. It is to continue in the daily process of sanctification. We do not account ourselves to be finished or perfected. We continually stretch forward to gain more and more of the experience of Jesus Christ. We are in the process of being found in Him. We are found in a rightouesness which is not based upon law keeping but rather is based upon faith that Christ can be all and all within us.The past is under the blood of Jesus. Yesterday with both its failures and successes is gone. Today I stretch forward to gain more of Christ - to be found in Him in more and more areas of my living.This was in the middle of Paul's life. Towards the end he says that he has kept the faith and expects a reward from the Righteous Judge Jesus Christ. Look carefully at Paul's attitude as he knows he approaches the end of his life's course - " I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.

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Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous JUdge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing." (2 Timothy 4:7,8) Important Facts:1.) This is not speaking of the gift of eternal redemption or eternal life.
2.) This passage is speaking of RECOMPENSE or REWARD. This is not Paul saying that he will be eternally saved because he kept the faith and ran the race. This is Paul saying he will receive a reward in the coming kingdom because he endured, kept the faith, and learned by faith to live righteously before God.3.) The CROWN here is not a crown of Grace. Nor is it a crown of Mercy. It is a "crown of RIGHTEOUSNESS" . In addition to positional justification by faith Paul expects the recompense of a crown of righteousness for subjective RIGHTEOUS LIVING.4.) The Giver of the reward of a crown of RIGHTEOUSNESS is not the Merciful Savior. It is not given by the Gracious Savior.Do not misunderstand me. Of course Christ is merciful and Christ is gracious. But here Paul says the recompense is awarded to him by "the righteous Judge".Christ who has saved Him forever has also wrought His divine nature into Paul's living. By Paul's cooperation Paul has undergone sanctification dispositionally. Paul expects from the "righteous Judge" a reward of the crown of righteousness for his practical, daily, righteous living. That is his righteous deeds done in faith in the righteous indwelling Lord within him. "Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day..." It has been a given and will remain a given to me that Paul is the author of Romans and Ephesians. I will continue to remark quite spontaneously that there is no suspicion in me whatsoever against that evidence that the Apostle Paul has given the church both letters.I have left the argument concerning authorship.But my main point here is that the process of sanctification frees one from sinning.This is not to teach that sinless perfection as the hyper holiness teachers is abtainable. It IS to teach that the normal experience is to continue to be freed more and more as we forget the things behind and stretch forth to gain Christ.Peter said that the believers in Christ have become "partakers of the divine nature" . And what do you suppose the believer is to DO with his or her particpating in the divine nature ? Of course, by faith, he learns its liberating power. "Seeing His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue,

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Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these YOU MIGHT BECOME PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Pet. 1:3,4 excuse the shouting) The Christian has become not just a spectator of the divine nature.
He is not just an admirer of the divine nature.
She is not just a worshipper or witness to the divine nature in God far away.The Christians is a PARTICIPANT, a PARTAKER of this divine nature. And that so that one may be liberated from the curruption that is in the world through sinful lusts of all kinds.Man is born again to become a partaker of the divine nature. The power of the divine nature can nullify the sinful lusts of the fallen Adamic nature. And living as a partaker of the divine nature to ever encreasing, ever deepening, ever expanding and growing degrees the believer is sanctified. The crown of righteousness from the Lord, the righteous Judge will be recompensed to such a normal overcoming follower of Jesus. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I try to remember that grace is a matter of God both over man and also within man. It is usually easier for us to understand God's grace as a kind of unmerited favor in God toward man. But God's grace working IN man I think is like "power steering" in an automibile.With a little cooperation His own life blends with ours and empowers us. Just like you apply a little turning to the car wheel and "power steering" adds substantial energizing to your moving.The analogy is not perfect, but a little helpful. The grace of God working IN Paul was none other than Jesus Christ working in Paul in a blended and mingled way. To prove this I present two parallel passages: The Grace of Christ Working in Paul - "But by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10) Christ Himself Living in Paul "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I [who] live, but it is Christ [who] lives in me; and the life which I now live I live in the flesh I live in faith, the [faith] of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Galatians 2:20) One passage says " ... not I, but the grace of God which is with me." The other passage says " ... no longer I .... but Christ who lives in me." Grace working in man is Christ Himself living in man.
Christ living in man is the grace of God working in man.Christ is risen from the dead and made available in a way that He can blend and mingle into our very being. He can be a kind of "power steering" energizing and empowering us to actually live unto God.Before I make any comment on Ephesians 3:2 and 3:8 I would like to reinforce the above revelation. Christ with the believer is the grace of God with the believer and vica versa.Here Paul says that the grace of Christ is with the Christian's spirit - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Phil. 4:22) "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen." (Galatians 6:18) But here it is Christ the Lord Himself who is with the believer's spirit - "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Timothy 4:22) The Lord Jesus living in the innermost being of the Christian is also the grace of Christ with his innermost being. The Lord Jesus Christ being with his spirit is grace being with him.By receiving Jesus as Lord we receive grace and grace becomes a "Trainer" teaching us to live godly - "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, TRAINING US that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present age,

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awaiting the blessed hope, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:11,12) So growing in the grace of God is a matter of receiving the training from the Trainer - the grace which is the indwelling Christ Himself - "training us ... we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present age." In this present age means in the church age even before the second coming and resurrection of the saints.Briefly to the two verses Ephesians 3:2, 3:8: "If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which has been given to me for you." (3:2)

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"To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel." (3:8) I think so very much could be said about these verses. Let me just say a few observations:1.) Paul had a reputation for the effectiveness, power, ability, wisdom, and skill with which he ministered to the Gentiles in the church life.If you were opened to his speaking, you left his fellowship enlightened, furnished, equiped, and really helped to go on in the Christian life. He could minister all night and keep his listeners probably on the edge of their seats.He had a reputation of such - "If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you." 2.) Paul imparted grace. Paul brought others into the enjoyment of Christ. Paul caused them to be closer to Christ. In short he caused men and women to want to live as he himself lived.3.) He poured out his being and his service on behalf of the believers. All of Christ which he enjoyed was for them - "the stewardhsip of the grace of God which was given to me for you." As Jesus poured Himself out for His disciples and for man as a whole, so His apostles (especially Paul) poured out all the riches of love and service within him on behalf of the disciples. Paul certainly must have felt that all that he had was FOR the church.4.) Paul was genuinely humble. He considered himself less than the least of all saints. He knew that everything he had came from God. He knew he was just a channel. In himself he was only a sinner saved by grace. In Christ he was placed into a service for which he could not boast in anything of his own merit. "To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given ..." 5.) In this regard Paul is simply a model of what a Christian's attitude should be. Paul is simply a most normal disciple. If he was beside himself in his enthusiasm it is only because he was fully unveiled to see reality for what it is.I think the more we see what he saw in truth, the more we also would be excited. Paul saw that Christ was unsearchably rich. Christ's worth was impossible to calculate. His preciousness and value were so extensive as to be beyond what man is able to imagine "To me ... was this grace given to announce the unsearchable riches of Christ ..." 6.) Paul's gospel was not just of being forgiven by God through Christ. It was to go on to live in the grace of God, experiencing the unsearchable riches of Christ. That is riches of Christ's life which were like a fathomless gold mine - "unsearchable". That is treasures too enumerable, too vast, to all-inclusive.This was Paul's gospel - "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" (RcV) .7.) Paul is not in an elite group. Rather he portrays a most normal disciple of Jesus - fully consecrated and fully devoted to the Lord's will. "To me, less than the least of all saints ..." I use the word "pioneer." He was simply one of a number of followers of Jesus who pioneered deep into the experience of the resurrected and available Lord Jesus. This Christian brother wrote some 13 books of the 27 New Testament books.8.) The phrase "this grace" is very subjective. This reminds me of Peter writing - "Enter into this grace and stand in it." (1 Peter 5:12) "This grace" indicates that this is an experiencial matter that the speaker is enjoying. He beckons the audience to continue to enjoy or to enter into the enjoyment more so.Paul says "this grace was given". It is the same grace that is with and in all of his audience.In fact the last and closing word of Paul in the New Testament is that the Lord is with the believers' spirit and therefore Grace is with them. "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Paul could have mentioned this because other preachers were going around to the churches underminding Paul's teaching.The council in Acts 15 and the book of Galatians indicate the competition Paul was up against. So also Philippians mentions workers teaching essentially to tear down Paul's enfluence.So the mentioning to a large Gentile component of the church in Rome that they are not under the law makes perfect sense.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.