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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Theodoric
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Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 91 of 169 (702081)
06-30-2013 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Thugpreacha
06-30-2013 2:28 AM


Re: The first to see Jesus after He'd risen
The reason that you argue this way is because you by nature hate the idea of God.

Maybe you should try to make actual arguments instead of just spewing crap, insults and attacking people.
I do not speak for Oni, or any other free thinker, but you flatter yourself if you think I hate your idea of a god. I think it is silly and juvenile, but hardly worth enough emotion to "hate" it.

I don't hate anyone's concept of god. I just find them silly.

You find me some evidence and I will give it consideration. Until then I will file it with leprechauns, Bigfoot and Nessie.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-30-2013 2:28 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1974 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 92 of 169 (702091)
07-01-2013 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
06-28-2013 7:53 PM


Re: Original Sin?
ICANT writes:

Neither was created, they were made.


Now your just being silly. Created and made are synonymous.
ICANT writes:

Yes it talks about the children of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis chapter 4.

But the generations beginning in Genesis 5:1 are of the mankind that was created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27 not the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.

How is that possible when the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are said to give birth to Seth who begets Enosh
Genesis 4 writes:

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.

And Genesis 5 has Adam and Eve who have a son named Seth who begets Enosh
Genesis 5 writes:

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

Clearly Genesis 4 and 5 Adam and Eve are the same people.
A plain reading of the text shows that if the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 1 Adam (as you state they are) then the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve. That they did not die the same day they ate the fruit and that the continued to live on and beget the generations of Adam in Genesis 5. Any other view is just mental gymnastics inorder to remove a blatant contradiction from what in the story God says will happen to what the story says actually happened.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2013 7:53 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 2:37 PM rueh has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 93 of 169 (702109)
07-01-2013 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by rueh
07-01-2013 9:45 AM


Re: Original Sin?
Hi rueh,

rueh writes:

ICANT writes:

Neither was created, they were made.


Now your just being silly. Created and made are synonymous.

And you know that because _____________.
What dictionary are you using to come to that conclusion?

The Hebrew word ברא translated created is Kal perfect 3ps root verb and is always used with God as the subject of the verb.

The Hebrew word ברא means: 1) to create, shape, form Strong's # H1254

That word is used in Genesis 1:1, 1:21 and 1:27 in Genesis chapter 1 and 2. All other uses are of ברא is referring to one of these events.

There are no materials mentioned that these entities came into existence from.

The Hebrew word עשה translated made is a Kal imperfect 3ps root verb and is used with anybody doing work or making things out of existing materials.

The Hebrew word עשה means: 1) to do, fashion, accomplish, make. Strong's # H6213

Both verbs being root words proves they are not the same nor are they synonymous.

Existing material is used to make the man in Genesis 2:7.
No existing material was used to create the mankind in Gen. 1:27

Plants, trees and vegetation were made to exist out of the ground in Genesis 2:9.
God called forth plants, trees, and vegetation after their kind out of their seed that was in the earth. Genesis 1:19

Animals were formed from the dust of the ground. Genesis 2:19
Animals were called forth after their kind. Genesis

The woman was made out of a rib taken from the man. Genesis 2:22
Mankind was created in the image/likeness of God at the same time. Genesis 1:27

Created:
Free online dictionary
1. To cause to exist; bring into being. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/created

Merriam-Webster online dictionary.
1: to bring into existence http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/create

Made:
Free online dictionary
1. Produced or manufactured by constructing, shaping, or forming. Often used in combination: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/made

Merriam-Webster online dictionary
1
a : fictitious, invented
b : artificially produced
c : put together of various ingredients

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/made

Conclusions concerning created and made being synonymous.

According to the Lexicons and modern Dictionaries the two words are not synonymous.

If you disagree please present your argumentation refuting what the Lexicons and dictionaries say.

rueh writes:

How is that possible when the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are said to give birth to Seth who begets Enosh

Genesis 4 writes:

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.

As I stated in the post you are replying too, it makes no difference whether they had a son called Seth or not, He did not exist at Genesis 1:2 as there was no life on earth. He would have been born in the DAY the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth which took place in Genesis 1:1.

reuh writes:

Genesis 4 writes:

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.

As I have said previously I believe Genesis 4:25, and 26 was added by some early copyist who was trying to make one story out of Genesis 1:2 - 2:3. If time was counted during the day God created the heavens and the earth in which all the descendants of Cain began to exist the man formed from the dust of the ground would have been 170 years old by the time vs 25 and 26 took place. But even if they did exist in chapter 4 they did not exist at Genesis 1:2.

rueh writes:

Genesis 5 writes:

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

Clearly Genesis 4 and 5 Adam and Eve are the same people.

A plain reading of the text shows that if the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 1 Adam (as you state they are) then the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve. That they did not die the same day they ate the fruit and that the continued to live on and beget the generations of Adam in Genesis 5. Any other view is just mental gymnastics inorder to remove a blatant contradiction from what in the story God says will happen to what the story says actually happened.

A plain reading of chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis put forth the following facts.

The man formed from the ground in Genesis 2:7 was the first life form on earth, and was formed in the same day the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth. Thus he was formed on DAY one.

quote:
Genesis :4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


There was no plants, no herbs and it had never rained on the earth before the man was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.

The mankind created from nothing in Genesis 1:27 in the image/likeness of God, male and female at the same time was created on the sixth day. After all vegetation of all kinds and creatures of all kinds existed.

quote:
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


There is no way a person that is formed from the dust of the ground before any other life forms as stated in:

quote:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Can be the same man as the one created on the sixth day after all other life forms was called fourth after their kind.

There are no contradictions between what is said in Genesis 1:2 - 2:3 and Genesis 2:4 - 2:25.

The reason is, they are not the history of the same events.
The events in Genesis 2:4 - 4:24 (you can add verse 25, and 26 if you desire too) took place in the same light period (day as defined by God in Genesis 1:5) as darkness existed at Genesis 1:2. These events took place in the beginning whenever that was.

The events recorded in Genesis 1:2 - 2:3 took place in the recent past six to ten thousand years ago.

I would actually think anyone who believes the BBT theory and evolution would be glad to hear a Bible believing creationist give as much duration in existence as would be necessary for those events to take place.

But regardless of what mankind (including me) believes and accepts they can not change what the text says as it is already written down in black and white.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 9:45 AM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 3:09 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2013 4:03 PM ICANT has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1974 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 94 of 169 (702112)
07-01-2013 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
07-01-2013 2:37 PM


Re: Original Sin?
ICANT writes:

According to the Lexicons and modern Dictionaries the two words are not synonymous.

If you disagree please present your argumentation refuting what the Lexicons and dictionaries say.

Here you go. http://thesaurus.com/browse/create?s=t

Main Entry: create  [kree-eyt] Show IPA/kriˈeɪt/ Show Spelled
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: develop in mind or physically
Synonyms: actualize, author, beget, bring into being, bring into existence, bring to pass, build, cause to be, coin, compose, conceive, concoct, constitute, construct, contrive, design, devise, discover, dream up, effect, erect, establish, fabricate, fashion, father, forge, form, formulate, found, generate, give birth to, give life to, hatch, imagine, initiate, institute, invent, invest, make, occasion, organize, originate, parent, perform, plan, procreate, produce, rear, set up, shape, sire, spawn, start

Create=Made

ICANT writes:

As I stated in the post you are replying too, it makes no difference whether they had a son called Seth or not, He did not exist at Genesis 1:2 as there was no life on earth. He would have been born in the DAY the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth which took place in Genesis 1:1.

But regardless of what mankind (including me) believes and accepts they can not change what the text says as it is already written down in black and white.

Genesis 3 writes:

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Note that even in Genesis 3 the man did not die. Only banished to work the ground.
Genesis 4 writes:

4 Adam[a] made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man.” 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.

Same man, still not dead begetting Cain and Able.
Genesis 4 writes:

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.

Same man, still not dead begetting Seth.
Genesis 5 writes:

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

Clearly the same man begetting Seth

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 2:37 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2013 4:10 PM rueh has not yet responded
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 5:16 PM rueh has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 169 (702118)
07-01-2013 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
07-01-2013 2:37 PM


As I have said previously I believe Genesis 4:25, and 26 was added by some early copyist who was trying to make one story out of Genesis 1:2 - 2:3.

Huh. Last time I brought it up you said they were two different groups of people who coincidentally had the same names. Now you're saying the versus were added in.

Do you have any reason to believe that those verses were added other than the fact that they prove your theory to be wrong?

How do you know that other versus weren't added in as well?

Oh, and if you would've look up the word "make" in the dictionary you provided, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/make , you would have found this:

quote:
make (mk)
v. made (md), mak·ing, makes
v.tr.
1. To cause to exist or happen; bring about; create:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 2:37 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 5:39 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 169 (702119)
07-01-2013 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by rueh
07-01-2013 3:09 PM


Re: Original Sin?
Regarding create vs. make; Gen 1:21 says that God created the great whales, so...

Bow down to your cetacean overlords!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 3:09 PM rueh has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 97 of 169 (702125)
07-01-2013 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by rueh
07-01-2013 3:09 PM


Re: Original Sin?
Hi rueh,

rueh writes:

Definition: develop in mind or physically

So was heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 developed in the mind or was the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 developed physically?

If they were developed physically, what kind of work did God do and what materials did he make into the heavens and the earth.

The definition provided by your thesaurus does not state in the definition that make and created are synonymous.

You are making the mistake of believing the Bible was written in English. Well it was not, it was written in Paleo, later translated into Hebrew, yet later translated into Greek and much later translated into English.

The Hebrew has two specific root verbs, one for created and one for make. Each has a different application.

The Hebrew word translated as make is in the Bible 2,633 times.
The Hebrew word translated as created is in the Bible 45 times in 38 verses. All these are referring to Genesis 1:1, 21, or 27.

If the Hebrews thought they where synonymous why did they even use a word for create?

rueh writes:

Note that even in Genesis 3 the man did not die. Only banished to work the ground.

Yes he was banished from the garden in chapter 3.

rueh writes:

Same man, still not dead begetting Cain and Able.

Yes he had two sons one called Cain and one Abel. You find Cain's descendants listed in chapter 4. Which included his great, great, great grandchildren.

rueh writes:

Same man, still not dead begetting Seth.

Maybe but maybe not as he would have been at least 170 years old if time was being counted as it is today.

rueh writes:

Clearly the same man begetting Seth

No way, as this Seth in chapter 5 was born to the mankind created in the image/likeness of God. The only man created in image/likeness of God was the male of the mankind created in Genesis 1:27.

quote:
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;


The generations of the mankind created in the likeness of God is what is recorded in Chapter 5 of Genesis according to 5:1.

It does not say it is the generations of the man formed from the dust of the earth.

If it was it would have started with the firstborn son which was Cain.

Another reason is can not be the generations of the man formed from the dust of the ground is that he began to exist the same day the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth which took place in Genesis 1:1 and the man did not exist at Genesis 1:2. Day one was not declared until God gave the definition of day in Genesis 1:5.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 3:09 PM rueh has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 135 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 98 of 169 (702131)
07-01-2013 5:39 PM


Certainly there are far better threads to argue about the oddities of the verbiage used in ICANT's special genesis and a "god is dead" thread is not that place.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2013 7:05 PM hooah212002 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 99 of 169 (702132)
07-01-2013 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
07-01-2013 4:03 PM


Hi CS,

Catholic Scientist writes:

Huh. Last time I brought it up you said they were two different groups of people who coincidentally had the same names. Now you're saying the versus were added in.

You forgot about raking me over the coals for accusing the scribes of adding to God's word.

Catholic Scientist writes:

Do you have any reason to believe that those verses were added other than the fact that they prove your theory to be wrong?

Whether they are there are not has no effect on my theory or what the Bible says.

The man formed from the dust of the earth was created in the day the LORD GOD created the heavens and earth as given in the generations of the heavens and the earth beginning at Genesis 2:4.

Catholic Scientist writes:

How do you know that other versus weren't added in as well?

I am sure there are other stuff that have been added and taken out as we only have copies of copies of copies, of copies, of copies, of copies for an unknown number of copies in which everyone was made by mankind who has a way of adding information and removing information that fits their bias.

My reason for believing they were added is because they read as an afterthought. You have Lamech concerned about what is going to happen to him because he has killed a young man and thinking his punishment will be worse than Cain's was.

Then the very next two verses appear.

Had they been inserted between 4:15 and 16 I would say they belonged.

But as far as my theory as you call it, it does not make any difference in my theory as the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:4 or any of his descendants exist at Genesis 1:2.
Therefore could not be any of the people mentioned in the Genesis 5:1 generations.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2013 4:03 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 100 of 169 (702145)
07-01-2013 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
06-30-2013 8:34 AM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
They stoned stephen because their conscience's were cut to the quick.

Acts 7 KJV
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 06-30-2013 8:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 07-01-2013 8:02 PM foreveryoung has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31610
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 101 of 169 (702146)
07-01-2013 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by foreveryoung
07-01-2013 7:54 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
Yes, we know that is how the writer of Acts sold the story, but is that anything other than propaganda?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by foreveryoung, posted 07-01-2013 7:54 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by foreveryoung, posted 07-01-2013 8:07 PM jar has responded

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 102 of 169 (702147)
07-01-2013 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
07-01-2013 8:02 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
It is the word of God. Men may have wrote it but God inspired it and if the story appears to be an accounting of events, then I don't believe God would inspire such a writing if it were false and propaganda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 07-01-2013 8:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 07-01-2013 8:35 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31610
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 103 of 169 (702150)
07-01-2013 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by foreveryoung
07-01-2013 8:07 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
It is the word of man. The authors may well have been inspired but they were just men, often writing absurdities, nonsense, stuff that is just plain wrong. When it comes to the New Testament it is primarily marketing.

There is a difference between being biased and propaganda though and being false. The story of Stephen is told in Acts from the point of view of someone actively trying to document the early Christian perspective, to market the new product Christianity.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by foreveryoung, posted 07-01-2013 8:07 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-01-2013 10:26 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 105 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-02-2013 2:23 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13150
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 169 (702156)
07-01-2013 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
07-01-2013 8:35 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
Do you have any proof behind your allegations, or is the serpent whispering "the truth" in your ear yet again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 07-01-2013 8:35 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13150
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 169 (702175)
07-02-2013 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
07-01-2013 8:35 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
jar writes:

The story of Stephen is told in Acts from the point of view of someone actively trying to document the early Christian perspective, to market the new product Christianity.

The whole story makes no sense to someone who sees Jesus as just a human with a good message. You say you are a Creedal Christian....but do you believe what the Creed says? You defend the story in Genesis and claim that the serpent told the truth, yet you claim that the NT is nothing more than an attempt at selling a new religion. The reason that this new religion makes no sense to you is because you essentially let logic, reason, and reality determine your belief. So which is it?

You say you have read the Bible. You treat it like a story when it suits you, and then claim marketing when you dont understand it. The text speaks for itself.( I trust you have read the Bible)

Does the Nicene Creed suggest that Jesus is alive today? If so, what is the problem with the NT?

Matthew 15:21-28 writes:

Matt 15:21-28

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The text tells us that Jesus was sent to Israel. You may listen to all the logic, reason, and reality that you wish, but denial of the purpose of Jesus Christ requires that you yourself redefine His purpose. You say that He is a great example of how to live. that we need to try to do what is right. That we know right from wrong. I can agree with all of this, yet I don't support your idea that there is no devil and no messiah. The text supports my belief, but you then take the very same text that proved to you this insane notion that the serpent told the truth...a notion that virtually no other Christian has mentioned.(look up the Hebrew and you will see that God never lied. You are, of course, free to belong to your preferred Chapter of Club Christian, but keep in mind that if the book was inspired only by humans, you or I are no better than the authors....and that critics could claim that you yourself are as much a marketer of doctrine as the ones whom you accuse.

It is true that a new religion is being preached after the Gospels. The old group of people preached of a kingdom on earth. The new idea was of a people "in Heaven".

I can see that you have reason to see that this new belief was being "marketed"...but do you have any evidence that the marketing conflicted with the old product? Keep in mind that plan B never becomes important unless plan A is rejected. But of course you have allowed intellectual humanists with no god in their heart apart from human wisdom convince you that Jesus was never a Messiah rejected by Israel. Thus I can see your confusion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 07-01-2013 8:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 07-02-2013 8:32 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 107 by Heathen, posted 07-02-2013 9:09 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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