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Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In Message 13 midspawn states
I dealt with 7 of these "known dates". Your challenge is to show how the small catchment area leading into varves of Lake Suigetsu would not be rainfall dependent , and would be seasonal. I did mention tides before but I am currently focussed on precipitation causing regular sedimentation and varves in the lake. Additionally please prove that layers from ice cores are not precipitation dependent, but are seasonal. Additionally please prove that tree rings in arid conditions (bristlecone pines) are not rainfall dependent but are formed seasonally/annually. Nope, these are NOT dealt with by handwaving gibberish about rainfall dependence, unless mindspawn thinks all scientists are gibbering idiots totally incapable of identifying and accounting for climate variations ... His comments have each been dealt with in detail to show that his fantasy criticisms are invalid. He just won't read it.
My discussion is with you only, you are welcome to re-post anything you feel is significant from the peanut gallery into this thread. Perhaps coyote should repost the entire peanut gallery thread so that mindspawn has no more excuse to ignore it. Certainly he has avoided confronting information in order to maintain his belief (cognitive dissonance in action). In Message 14 coyote replies
You expect us to believe that all of the different elements that go into the calibration curve are all wrong, for a variety of different reasons, in the exact same manner? Tree-rings in California and Europe, lake and glacial varves in a variety of locations, spelothems, and corals are all wrong but still give the same answers! Yes, it is the correlations that show that these methods are accurate and precise ... and consistently agree. Mindspawn needs to explain how a rainstorm over a lake in Japan affect the growth of trees on the Sierra Nevada mountains and in Ireland and Germany. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If you want, and mindspawn agrees, I can take over for you
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
you appear to have missed a quote.
Uranium-Thorium dating even calibrates against radiocarbon dating False I wonder if mindspawn is confusing calibration with correlation ... when one system is compared to another to see if there is a correlation, that is not calibrating either system.
cal•i•brate[kal-uh-breyt] verb (used with object), cal•i•brated, cal•i•brat•ing.
cor•re•la•tion[kawr-uh-ley-shuhn, kor-] noun
Another word used is consilience:
quote: Perhaps the next version of my age dating correlations should use consilience as a more appropriate description. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
His link is broken but it's Radiocarbon calibration curve spanning 0 to 50,000 years BP based on paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C dates on pristine corals Thanks! Another piece of information to add to the Age Correlations thread in its next incarnation.
quote: bold added Note high precision and accuracy Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : abstractby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
okay, thanks.
Will you post on the GD thread to ask mindspawn? I'll check with Percy Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I asked coyote if he would mind if I took over, and be said yes. (Message 55)
If it is okay with mindspawn, do you see any problems with us changing places (I would stop posting here). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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In Message 17 midspawn states
Its not a variety of reasons, 4 of those locations are precipitation sensitive. That's one reason. The half-life of Uranium-Thorium is not independently established in a laboratory, but measured against existing dating methods and so is bound to evolutionary assumptions and this explains the consilience in the other 3 locations. ... The problems with the claim about precipitation sensitivity are:
The problem with his comment about Uranium-Thorium dating is just plain ignorance. As pointed out by Percy (Message 50):
quote: Uranium decays into Thorium, so this is basically a parent-daughter dating system (see wiki Uranium-Thorium for how it works).
midspawn, Message 17: ... Uranium-Thorium dating even calibrates against radiocarbon dating and so these dates become meaningless as independent verifiction of radiocarbon dates. Curiously this is not how science works, rather the consilience between the different systems makes the case stronger that they represent the same thing, in this case actual age. When we see this paired with the 99.5% precise accuracy of the tree ring chronologies and the overlap of 14C data between those chronologies and this Uranium-Thorium (parent-daughter) dating system that is developed from a totally different basis, it is a strong consilience. This means that his criticism of tree-rings is incorrect.
Radiocarbon calibration curve spanning 0 to 50,000 years BP based on paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C dates on pristine corals quote: Precise and accurate.
midspawn, Message 17: Weather occurs in cycles and patterns, eg cold fronts. It logical that there would be approximately the same number of major precipitation events every year, and so the consilience is not unrealistic. Of all the locations in the world which have definite seasonal patterns, scientists have specifically found 4 locations that are precipitation sensitive rather than seasonal sensitive to find their consilience. But not on opposite sides of the earth. This is just wishful thinking with no evidence to support it. mindspawn could try to provide evidence by actually showing that the same precipitation occurred in Germany, Ireland, Nevada and Japan in one year -- good luck with that.
midspawn, Message 17: 2) Lake Suigetsu is fed by a river in a small catchment area. I challenge you to explain to me how layers of sediment wash into a lake in seasonal patterns without a high degree of sensitivity to each significant rainfall This too is wishful thinking combined with ignorance of how the layers are formed. The layers alternate between diatoms and clay. The diatoms bloom in the spring and summer and can go through several episodes of bloom and death and still create a single diatom layer. The clay layer can only occur when there is sufficient time for the clay to form a layer, and this is during the winter months when there is no diatom growth. The clay settles slowly, throughout the year, and it is only when the diatom deaths have stopped for several months that the accumulation is discernible independently from the diatom layer. This means NO tide sensitivity, NO precipitation sensitivity. This can be tested by taking large container and every day throw in a cup of clay and a cup of diatoms and see how they settle. This is basic soil physics.
midspawn, Message 17: 3) Ice cores are precipitation sensitive, each large snowfall/rainfall would by its very nature create a layer, please explain why those layers are annual and not sensitive to each major precipitation during the year. There is a physical difference between seasons that can differentiate the annual layers http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf (6)
quote: Again, it is absolutely absurd to think that the scientists involved with this work would be so naive and incompetent that they would be totally ignorant of the difference between snowfall layers and annual layers. Again, just throwing out off the cuff claims is not any valid way to criticize scientific work.
midspawn, Message 17: ... You need a stronger argument than consilience to counter my argument of precipitation sensitivity of those locations, which explains the consilience due to consistent worldwide rainfall patterns. Curiously, most weather does not occur in a lock-step exactly matched pattern world-wide. The recent typhoon in the Philippians would affect the precipitation in Japan, but have no effect on the precipitation in Nevada, Ireland and Germany. Similar storms can be found in recent history for each of these locations that do not affect the other locations. This totally refutes this claim of a "consistent worldwide rainfall pattern" ... and this means the argument based on it is invalidated, shown to be nothing better than fantasy wishful thinking. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : coding Edited by RAZD, : addedby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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two things:
(1) I concur with NoNukes that this is within his typical posting periods, it's too early to consider it an effect of cognitive dissonance, and I am willing to wait a few more days, and (2) Posts are as much for the lurkers as they are for the participants, and there often are lurkers who benefit even when the participants don't. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If I read correctly, the ages they obtained were uncalibrated, and still agreed closely with the Egyptian chronology. not quite ... they took 7 samples and dated them by 14C, uncalibrated dates, and then took the uncalibrated dates and compared them to a dendrochronology (Bristlecone pine was used in another Egyptian study) to arrive at a dendro calendar age, and that age corresponded with the historical dates. A two-step process.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I would like to get a PDF of
LaMarche, V.C. Jr., Hirschboek, K.K., Frost Rings in Trees as Records of Major Volcanic Eruptions, Nature 307, 1984 p121-126 I can get the abstract but not the full article, and would rather use this article than a news report on it. message me for email RE Wright, R.D., Mooney, H.A., Substrate-oriented Distribution of Bristlecone Pine in the White Mountains of California, American Midland Naturalist, Vol. 73, No. 2 (Apr., 1965), pp. 257-284 Published by: The University of Notre Dame JSTOR: Access Check My Jstor shelf is full so I would need copy of this ... especially Fig 4 Thanks Edited by RAZD, : addedby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
can't download it
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
that works
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
fig 7 shows respiration and photosynthesis versus moisture
fig 4 shows moisture versus time take the values for moisture at the different time point and plot those on fig 7 to obtain what the respiration and photosynthesis would be for those times by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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