Importance of Original Sin

Phat, in the old days by now there would have been about 10 "OFF TOPIC" warnings. There was a time when this much straying (of which I also take responsibility) would have been flagged multiple times by now.What has changed ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Stark, yes. But the does not make live on earth some kind of punishment.Do you seriously consider your own existence in which you don't look forward to living in paradise with the Lord to be punishment?Yes, man has to work for a living. That's life in the big city, not some kind of damnation. The only alternative to life, for men, good or evil is being below ground.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Of course not. The entire thing is a myth exploited by organised religions.The argument is not about what I believe, it's about what people like Jaywill believes. If you think that the ultimate goal of life is to be with god in paradise then having that opportunity removed from you for no fault of your own as a punishment for the sins of your forefathers is unjust.

That is what folk in these parts call word salad. Pious, preachy word salad.In my part of the world we call it bollocks.My question is really simple but you fail to answer it directly time after time. Why is it just and moral to punish the descendants for the sin of Adam?Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

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Romans 5:12 ''That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. . ''.

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Joan of Arc
Mansoor Al-Hallaj
Thich Quang Duc
Martin Luther King
Socrates
Abraham Lincoln
Sikh GurusAnd a whole swath of others. If you want to argue who has the 'high level of morality', knock yourself out. Oh, and I left out copious individuals from pagan religions such as Egyptian or Greek mythology. Well of course you read that differently. If it is one thing you have demonstrated is an uncanny ability to read things that everyone else in 2000 years of history of your faith have read another way. Yet you continue to preach from your pulpit about the certainty of your world view. Ironic. I am sorry, but that is a load of rubbish. 'My Father's House' suddenly doesn't mean heaven in your view? Does god keep a summer home in the crab nebula?
The last time I saw this many cartwheels in sequence was when I went to see Cirque de Soleil. He was 'left over'? Really? That is your best answer after all this? And your logic is 'god allowed him to be there'.Are you seriously telling me that your philosophy states that a moral, loving, omnipotent being WILLFULLY decided to leave a malevolent, evil entity to freely roam the paradise he had just created? Let me draw an analogy for you:A parent has a child.
A parent had a previous child that was a serial killer.
The parent willfully allows the serial killer child to interact with the second child, knowing full well the capabilities and action of the serial killer child.As an outsider, looking in on this, what impression do you think they might have of that parent? Yet your god had no qualms destroying millions of humans, including children during the flood. Or at Sodom and Gomorrah. Or the first born of Israel. No issues or compunction wiping all those individuals off the map. Didn't you just state that god would not be the creator destroying the creature in your previous statement? Then how precisely can you now state unequivocally that satan and the whole 'opposition party' (whatever the heck that means) will be eliminated forever? Prolixity
1. Tediously prolonged; wordy: editing a prolix manuscript.
2. Tending to speak or write at excessive length. See Synonyms at wordy.A common tactic by religious zealots: hoping to use a massive outflux on scripture and interpretation as a means to 'drown out' the opposition.

The United Kingdom ? The home of someone like C.S. Lewis the Oxford atheist turned Christian ?He wrote a book "Surprised By Joy" Oxford Mathematician John Lennox is active in that part of the world.Here he is debating Richard Dawkinshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t97VkSnDjgThere are many people like me in your part of the world. There are people like me on all five of the continents on the face of the earth. You are very proud of your "part of the world" there in the UK.
But the Good News of Christ's salvation has spread to the UK and to this day there are young and old trusting in Jesus Christ.Here again is Mathematician John Lennox of Oxford (from your part of the world) discussing Stephen Hawking's Book "The Grand Design" -Video #2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eHfhbP1K_4 I asked for the passage saying God punishes me for the sin of Adam.
Did you provide it ?If you are taking about the particular transgression of the man Adam, God does not hold me responsible for that act.I inherited a sin nature, as you did also, out from that nature I have my own sins to be responsible for. Christ died for my sins. And by identifying with Him through faith, those sins were not overlooked, the were judged in Christ on my behalf.Now your next move is to show me where the Bible says, for what Adam specifically did, God punishes me.The nearest person whom I would consult about is Cain or Abel. I do not see God coming to Cain to punish him for his father's act.It is the case that all descendents of Adam suffer death. Do they die in your part of the world ?The effect of the sin nature has been death throughout all the human race in every part of the world. So the Son of God and His redemptive offering and victorious resurrection are relevant to your part of the world as any other.Here Paul says death spread to all men even over those whose sin was not the same kind as those of Adam.

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"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned - ... Death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adan's transgression, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Rom. 5:12,14)

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What I see is the death is an effect of the sin nature even over those whose sin was not like the sin of Adam. While I still could understand some of this better, I do not see Cain being punished for Adam's transgression. I see God coming to Cain about Cain's transgression.I also do no see God holding anyone guilty for dying.
Neither am I aware of God extending forgiveness to anyone FOR dying.So I think your view is off.
Perhaps it is purposely off.Anyway, as I said before, when I think of the misfortune brought on me because of Adam, I do not linger there too long. I like to contemplate the second man, the last Adam. I like to thank God for the incredible benefit to me for His righteous act.It far more counter balances any misfortune I received from the act of Adam.I do look forward to more people of Christian stature from your part of the world like John Lennox and C.S. Lewis. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This is the only portion of this post I can speak to now.I am familiar with some of these names.How come western civilization was not divided up Before the birth of any of these people and in the Year of any of these people ?If Abraham Lincoln's deeds, words, and assassination had as much impact on the world why didn't it follow that we speak of BL (Before Lincoln) and ie. In the Year of Our Lord Abraham Lincoln ?This is not to take lightly his contribution. But it is to take seriously the comparison of the world's estimation of his significance to that of Jesus Christ.Martin Luther King suspected he was going to be killed. He bravely went on and was killed. But King was a preacher of Christian themes and would have never claimed that he was anything else but a sinner in need of Christ's love and perfection.Ghandi would not compare himself to Christ.
While we are impressed with their dedication to their causes, we hear them take their place in history clearly underneath the impact of one Jesus of Nazareth.It is not good enough to mention martyrs.Socrates' death I read about. I was impressed. He would not accept deliverance and argued with his friends who tried to persuade him to be rescued. The death of Socrates was an impressive read, as far as it was told me by Plato.But the death of Christ was a prophecy a thousand plus years before He died. Therefore the prophetic nature of His ministry has the stamp of divine transcendence over it.Not to mention His birth. How He was able to arrange Himself to be born in Bethlehem as the prophecy of Micah Five foretells is humanly impossible to arrange. That is unless He was indeed God become a man.Joan of Arc, for sure, would never have compared her death as equivalent in significance to that of Jesus. You may rank her death with that of Christ. She herself would probably never have considered her death for her cause to be as significant as the crucifixion of Jesus.I think you have to pay attention to what these people said about Jesus themselves if those words are available. This speaks of their own self estimation. If you regard their teaching then you have to regard their self estimation too.Any soldier who has died on the battlefield we may say has died for a cause. But I know of know soldier going into battle considering him or herself equal to Jesus.My uncle died as a Green Beret in Vietnam for a cause. He did an act of great bravery to even be there. He also was a man struggling with alcoholism and would not have claimed he was as an exemplary a human life as that of Jesus Christ.While we do not underestimate the dedication of many people who have died for causes, we do not place them automatically on the same level of high morality as Jesus.And no one of these made the claim that he or she would rise from the dead in three days. And none of them, except perhaps Elvis Presley, have so large of following in their times immediately after their death that they were seen alive.Presley is an idol and nearly worshiped. But that is for his entertainment value. And the superstition of his having been seen alive was not countered by the power of the likes of the Roman Empire. And that in vain for years by torture, imprisonment, death.To many people claiming that Christ was risen for three hundred years closely following His execution, could not be silenced by the terror of the likes of Nero or other Roman emperors.Spend a night reading Foxe's Book of Christian Martyrs if you're able to stand it. These people died TOO for a cause. The cause was the risen and victorious Christ.I don't think your comparisons come up to the level of significance as the death of Jesus. It is the resurrection of Jesus which makes the death of Jesus all the more meaningful.If He died and did not rise then our Christian Gospel is in vain and is foolishness. Finding the corpse of any of the figures you mentioned would not totally negate the validity their teaching.Finding the corpse of Jesus of Nazareth would render the entire New Testament a vanity not worth longer believing.If you find the corpse of Jesus Christ, it is all over for the new testament Christian. Paul himself said that. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't think that statement is logical. For example, I may think the best possible occupation is engineering, but that does not mean that your being something else is some kind of punishment or that I should want God to make you an engineer.And again, my primary point is not to dispute your point regarding original sin and the resulting eternal punishment being unfair. I am disputing your statement that not getting to live in the garden of Eden after Adam was kicked out is a punishment at all.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

God made a paradise for mankind to live in but when Adam and Eve sinned god punished them by banishing them from the paradise, making them mortal - subject to pain, sickness and death. That was their punishment from god and that's the punishment we all get at birth even though we have not committed the sin. God punishes not just Adam and Eve but the whole of mankind thereafter by denying us the Paradise on earth.To prefer a mortal life of sickness hard work and death over an infinity of paradise, would be a strange form of masochism.

Stop squirming. The reason you and I are not now enjoying Paradise is because of the sin of Adam, [Genesis 3]. Please explain why that is a just and moral act. (5th time of asking?)

The "this generation" complaint argues that because the second coming of Jesus did not occur in the life spans of His contemporary audience, He failed in His prophecy.What determines the consummation of the age is not the length of anyone's natural lifespan. It is the growth and maturity of the divine life within a group of people. The size of the group is only known to God.

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"And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how he does not know.

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The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.

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But then when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:26-29)

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The maturity of the growth and development of the sown life determines the time of harvest. So it is with the Christian church.God has dispensed Christ as divine life into many people. At every stage of growth it is the kingdom of God. But the harvest is determined by the maturation of the planted life. It is not determined by the length of the natural life of any people but rather by the maturity of spiritual life in them. "But when the fruit is RIPE..." determines the time of the second coming of Christ.Here and there, down through history individual disciples "ripened". And they will be rewarded for that. The divine life of Christ in men had to be tested and approved through all manner of worldly opposition. The durable quality of Christ as the indwelling spiritual life had to be proved.Paul showed us that man is an "earthen vessel" as a container. And Jesus Christ is the divine life that God dispenses as a "treasure" INTO the earthen vessel -

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" But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not our of us." (2 Cor. 4:7)

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The "this generation" fallacy assumes that the only thing that mattered to Christ was the age of the "earthen vessels". But the determining factor of the consummation of the church age is the maturity of the treasure of divine life within the earthen vessels.A group of vessels with the indwelling power must mature in being filled, saturated, and permeated with that life power. For sure Paul was mature and many of those under his ministry. It is God's intention that a larger group of "earthen vessels" reach saturation point.This is like the phenomenon of titration in chemistry. Two matter mix together and at a certain point the color of the mixture suddenly changes.The "harvest" of maturity time is only known to God.Concerning the parable of the wheat and the tares Jesus says -

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" The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man sowing good seed in his field ... Let both grow together [wheat and tares] until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Collect first the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up, but the wheat gather into my barn ...

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and the harvest is the consummation of the age; and the reapers are angels ... Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (See Matthew 13:24-4)

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The emphasis about the consummation of the age is the harvest or maturity of the crop that the sower has sown. The development of the divine "wheat" life into a climax triggers the end of the age. It is not determined by the length of the natural life of any natural generation.So it is a fallacy to think that the time table of Christ's second coming was set by God to be any end point of some natural lives.The vision of this great reaping of a mature harvest of life on earth is seen finally in Revelation 14:14-16.

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"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

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And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to HIm who sat on the cloud, Send forth Our sickle and reap,

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FOR THE HOUR TO REAP HAS COME BECAUSE THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE.

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ANd He who sat on the clud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev. 14:14-16 , my bolding)

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The time of HARVEST determines the time of the Son of man reaping through His angels the crop of Christ indwelt people on the face of the earth. And God has a way to give incentive for all His Christians on earth to seek to grow in this implanted spiritual life.

More sermonising, pontification and wriggling.'This generation' means what it says on the tin; within the lifetime of those listening. That was the expectation of those at the time. 'Generation' is used many times in the bible and it clearly has the same meaning. You only need to twist meaning in the way thatyou do, to explain away a failure of prophecy.

I am enjoying a foretaste of the Paradise age. You see, part of my being has already entered into that age.So when you say "You and I are not now enjoying Paradise ... " that is not completely true in my case.By being born again I am enjoying a appetizer of the coming millennium and coming eternal age afterwards. My innermost spirit has already entered. As Christ spreads through my soul, He brings my mind, emotion, and will into that paradise. Lastly, He will bring my physical body into that paradise with the environment.As for the sin nature it is the same. Within me there is One who is overcoming that sin nature. In Him is not sinning. And He lives in me.I must learn to live the new way as opposed to the old way. The new way is to live in unity with this Victor who is stronger than any sin nature.So from the inside out God is in the process of bringing the believers into that paradise age because the paradise is actually a Person - Jesus Christ. I don't want to go back to Eden with my ruined soul. I want to go to any restored Eden with a transformed and sanctified soul plus a transfigured body.I'll take this wonderful process of recovery and restoration. I find it far more profitable than honing in arguments that I am only under constant punishment from God because He is in the process of working out His will.While you complain "Why is not the New Jerusalem here NOW ?" is a question that I may not fully satisfy, I point you to the facts. The believer in Christ is on the way from the inside of being towards the outside. We know that Revelation 21 and 22 is where we are headed in this process. And we who seek to are enjoying the foretaste as a down payment of a fuller experience to come.Come and enjoy the foretaste. Come and enjoy the pledge of the full inheritance to come.

nvEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No. The Father's house there in John 14 is not heaven.