Importance of Original Sin

The point is that they thought they were minisitering when they were not. They asked, "When did we not minister unto thee?" Why would they ask that if they were non-Christians who had no interest in ministering to Him?

But there's no reason to think that except to shoehorn the passage into your preconceived theology. It's the whole concept of a return that's wrong. He doesn't need to return because He's still here. He lives on in the hearts and minds of people, just like Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King live on in the hearts and minds of people, just like our own parents and grandparents live on in our hearts and minds.At least, He lives in some people's hearts and minds. Others, like the foolish virgins, are so excited that "He's coming soon" that they miss His presence.

That's a silly sci-fi interpretation. It belongs with talking snakes in children's stories.I said that we didn't see any rapture. In "this generation", the generation of Jesus and His disciples, there were no mysterious disappearances. If it was a prophecy, it failed.

The debate between Abraham and God went on about whether or not God would be just in Genesis chapter 18.Abraham created a hypothetical of a certain number of righteous people in a place where God was intending to judge. He reduced the number down and down and down to assure himself that his young nephew Lot would be spared.The conclusion of that back and forth was that Abraham said "Far be it from You ! ( to judge unjustly ) Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly ? (Gen. 18:25) It is a question that a man must decide for himself. If we are God's creatures and He is our Creator, does it make sense that the effect (the creature man) is greater than the cause (the Creating God) ?Does it make sense that God bestowed upon us what was not in Himself to bestow - a superior sense of justice ?Does it make sense that having created man, God now needs to sit down at man's feet to be educated concerning matter in which He is deficient ?I have decided that God the Cause must exceed man the effect. And though I do not have all details of God's decisions as a kind of flowchart, I with, Abraham, trust that my sense of rightness cannot exceed God's.People often think of "having the right religion". But people can meet the living God in spite of their upbringing by some intimate touch deep within beyond cultural surroundings.This is not an endorsement to be chaotic or anarchistic or ambiguous about what we believe. This is a assumption that God knows what He is doing. All I would say about the Scripture being "patently absurd" is that one Jesus seemed to take it extremely seriously. He did not have to drink the cup that He was given to drink. And He agonized over completing the Father's will for our salvation.He knew it most intimately. And He apparently did not regard the will of His Father to be "patently absurd." He poured out His life and said "It is finished" concerning the need that a redemptive atonement to save man, be accomplished by the Son of God.If redemption was "patenty absurd" why did a person like Jesus of Nazareth take it with such seriousness ? And please do not make cheap comparisons with other deceived martyrs. Jesus Christ is in a class unique to Himself alone. Only ONE member among all humans, is in that class.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

On the contrary. Science Fiction unconsciously often imitates reality.I am not going to go over the direct teachings which indicate that Christ comes back victorious, not alone.In fact I already gave you plenty of proofs on this. And this is precisely what I mean by saying correcting ringo does not do any good. You are not teachable or correctable.I do not expect you to always agree with me by a long shot. But you seem not to get anything of correction. Failed complaint. And I am not going to go deeply into the matter of the prophecy of a taking away from the earth of His watching and waiting disciples.But interested readers may FIRST consider the story of the taking of Enoch before the flood of Noah. That would be a good place to begin in understanding the so called "Rapture" Genesis 5:19-24.Genesis is a book which contains all the SEED concepts of the rest of the Bible, practically. Whatever great truths there are in the rest of the Bible are found in "seed" form in the book of Genesis. This occurs with rapture also.These "seeds" of Genesis are developed further in the other books of the Bible. The basic concepts are seen as seeds in the first book of the Bible, Genesis.The harvest or climax of these seeds is in the book of Revelation. The same is true concerning the Rapture. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I would consider this a particularly unthankful attitude towards God.Have there been some problems in our lives? Yes, there have been.But look back over the last 365 days from today. Look back over the last year. Didn't you have many days of some reasonable happiness? Did you not have some days to happily pursue your enjoyments?Did you ever just stop and thank God for the blessings you enjoyed during this life ? The last year of 365 days you came through. Was there nothing for which you could stop and say "I just want to thank you God, for this or for that" ?You have a sound mind to be able to recall and study. Did you ever stop for a moment and say -"God, in spite of the fact that I have experienced some misfortune because of this Adam thing, at least I want to pause a minute and THANK You for this care You bestowed upon me, in this area."Don't you think your attitude is without any sense of thankfulness ?
You HAVE had many days of happiness.
And you HAVE had opportunity to open your heart and receive the Savior.It has not been for you only a "short and painful life".And if God left us completely without some feeling that things are not completely normal, we might never give Him a thought. So I dare say God has alloted to each of us a portion of blessing and of reminders that in the eternal sense, we need His Fatherhood.

Nor are you, apparently, going to acknowledge the presence of Christ, which precludes the necessity of a return. If you said anything that was correct, you would see that I am correctable.

Yes, inherited guilt is hard to justify. I would suggest that the Bible does not even require that anyway. But inherited inability not to live in paradise is not really that hard to understand, and is not a cruel or unusual result.If in fact, I manage to run up a huge debt, or get criminal acts that end up having me imprisoned or punished financially, then my kids are going to eat Ramen Noodles and I'm not going to be able to pass on any financial legacy to them.Unless humans are entitled to live a work of ease and luxury with no effort, something I don't believe, and more importantly, something you don't believe, then not getting to live in paradise is not a punishment, even if the cause of such is the acts of their parents. If in fact such a result is immoral, then every criminal justice punishment scheme you've ever encountered in real life is equally immoral, because their consequences fall equally well onto innocent dependent children and beyond if they miss opportunities like going to college, inheriting land to farm, etc.Beyond thatThe authors of Genesis never intended the serpent story to be a literal description of events. Instead the story, like a huge number of other Biblical stories describe how the people of Israel relate to Yahweh. Namely as their creator to whom they owed their very lives and whatever success they managed to have here. The authors certainly did not mean for Genesis to explain man being doomed to eternal damnation, because they did not even believe in such a thing.

The difference between being imortal, living in paradise at one with the Lord and being doomed to a life of hard work, pain suffering and ultimate death with only a small chance of redemption thereafter is quite stark. Sure, in this vale of suffering those inequities and bad luck occur - but even our imperfect societies have laws against group punishment, we know it be wrong and the preserve of the despot.I think we could reasonably expect a just and merciful god to organise things a little differently and by not doing so - by punishing all children throughout time for the sins of their long, long distant grand father - he performs an immoral and unfair act. And on a gross scale.

Considering that we (humans) have moved passed the notion of blaming children for the actions of their parents, I would say 'yes'. The fact that we function on a moral high-ground which exceeds that which is depicted in your interpretation of scripture speaks volumes. Not according to your scripture. One must accept Jesus as their savior before they can enter the kingdom of heaven. That is stated quite clearly here in John 14:6

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Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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That states unequivocally that no one enters heaven or 'comes to god' except through Jesus Christ the savior. Thus, if one is never either exposed to Christ or finds their faith elsewhere (Islam, Hinduism, etc) then they will NOT come to the father. Well you gotta love that statement. There are copious individuals, including religious figures who died for their beliefs. But you ignore them out of hand because you have already concluded on Jesus being 'the one and only'. You draw your conclusion and work backwards.By the way, you still never answered my original question: how did Satan get into the Garden of Eden masquerading as a snake?And no long winded scripture or hyperbole please. I want that question addressed. If god is so omnipotent and so loving, why would he leave open a back door to let in one of the evil entities as depicted in your bible to mess with his 'loving creations'?

So im assuming that in your mind, you also think there is no way that you can "know" Jesus. Correct?A character in a book. A book like any other book. (collection of books)All I can say is that if GOD made you the Apostle to the atheists, He left a few nuts and bolts out of the assembled product.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Not just me, until someone can explain a method I think there is no way that anyone can "know" Jesus. Huh? Well, I'm not an apostle to anyone but I am open to learning and have asked repeatedly for people to explain how to differentiate between "knowing Jesus or God or Holy Spirit" and a bad burrito.AbE:I can learn from stories like Huck Finn, some times very important things. There can be great value, worth and depth in literature. But I can never say I "know" Huck Finn.Edited by jar, : fix sub-heading and see AbE:

*** KNEE JERK DISAGREEMENT ! *** *** Compulsive - mandatory - knee jerk atheistic contrariness ***

Okay. You have made this insinuation several times by now. Its time to call you on it. Which passage in the Bible blames someone besides Adam for the sinful act of Adam ? Which humanist in world history do you think has achieved an equal amount of universal esteem for a high level of morality reputed of Jesus Christ ? I do not read that passage the way you read it.It says no one comes to the Father except through "Me". This "Me" is a Person.No one comes to the Father except through "Me" may not equal "No one comes to the Father except through the religion of Christianity."Is there an imperative in the Gospels that the message of Jesus Christ be preached to all the world ? Yes, there is. But I am not told ALL the details. I am not called to be able to explain all details. I am called upon to obey the calling to announce the Gospel.Furthermore, the last passage I can think of in the Bible speaking of God descriminating between those lost and those saved only mentions that those whose names are not written in the book of life will perish.Do I know exhaustively how any person is written in the Lamb's book of life ?
No, I personally would not dare to teach that I know every way in which a person is written in the book of life.Here is the passage which I consider a final word in the Scripture on that matter:

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" And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)

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There are the totally ignorant.
There are the mentally disabled.
There are those only exposed to a perverted, idolatrous perversion of the New Testament.
There are those having died before birth or soon after birth.Do I personally know what God will do in all conceivable situations human beings find themselves in ? No, I do not. Nor do I know all the ways in which a person may be written in the book of life.Does this negate that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ? No. I believe it argues that if a person comes to the Father it will only be through Jesus Christ that they were able to do so.Does all of this nullify God's call that I should preach the Gospel in the world ?
No, it does not.
It demonstrates that I should be obedient to announce the good news of Christ without necessarily being able to furnish an infallible flowchart diagram predicting how each of billions of people will be processed by God.That is my stance. There can be urgency without total knopwledge.
If another evangelical has another position then that is their position to defend if they wish. It says nothing about heaven in John 14:6.
And the phrase "My Father's house" I can demonstrate is not heaven.It says no one comes to the Father except through Jesus - the "Me".
I interpret that to ultimately mean that if anyone ever comes to the Father it will have only been because of the "Me" of the Son of God - Jesus.There us no "ISM" and no "ANITY" and even no "Teaching" mentioned in John 14:6. There is the mentioning of a living Person - Jesus, the "Me".Now most Atheist that I talk to by far are more elitist about coming to ultimate truth then anything in the New Testament. To come to truth you have to conversant in Darwinism. Maybe to know the truth of life you have to have mastered Quantum Physics and thoroughly know the lastest on multiple universes and string theory.Most atheists I speak with imply that only those who have graduate school level expertise on ancient history, Greek language, Roman politics, history of church doctrine, and many other things can he be deemed somewhat approaching the vital truths of life.The athiest's way is far more narrow. Stephen Hawking can possible approach the truth of life. Maybe Carl Sagan can get in. Maybe Bart Erhman has a chance to know what the truth is.So invariably your way of a human coming to final truth is far more narrow than God's way. I don't know that.I know that I am told to announce the Gospel to every creature under heaven and to live through Christ. I obey without having the total knowledge of God Himself. And I am happy to do so. I am happy to expect to be surprised.So you cannot saddle me with an assurance that I do not claim to have.
That is concerning every possible situation of men.

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" And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)

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This does not tell me that I know exhaustively how everyone's name is entered into the book of life. I do know that it includes those who receive Christ.And as we have seen in this discussion from Matthew 25:31-46 those who inherited the kingdom yet were justified, must have had their names also in the Lamb's book of life.I never argued that those sheep of the nations were disciples of Jesus per se. I didn't ignore them out of hand. I said in essence don't waste my time by talking about some of them.No, Jim Jones doesn't compare morally with Jesus.
No, David Koresh doesn't compare morally with Jesus.
No, ten or so maniacs who flew a plane into a building to murder thousands of innocent people don't compare morally to Jesus.I implied that I know full well some people died for a belief.
The Heaven's Gate people died believing that a comet was accompanied by a spaceship to wisk them off to the next level above human in the evolutionary scheme.I do not believe those poor suicidal people are in the same class as Jesus Christ.Now if you have someone else whose dedication you claim is comparable to that of Christ, then specify and I'll consider.Ghandi ? Martin Luther King ? Bobby Kennedy ? Malcolm X ? Abe Lincoln ?Yes they all died, you can say, for strongly teaching something.
But none of these would ever attempt to claim that they were morally at the same level as Jesus Christ. They all spoke UP towards Jesus and not ACROSS to Jesus. And never did any of them talk DOWN to Jesus.And then you have the resurrecion as a vindication which none of these strong teachers experienced. At least you have a historical case for a miracle of resurrection as a reasonable explanation of the growth of the Christian faith so suddenly out from centuries of Jewish tradition. The answer is simple and I did speak to this without mentioning your tag.
Satan was left over from a previous order of things. He was left over from a previous world. And God allowed him to be there in that situation.I wrote that God placed man in a triangular situation.
One one side was God.
One one side was Satan.
And in the middle was Adam with a will to choose between the two.God was represented in "the tree of life".
Satan was represented in the forbidden tree - "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." God warned the man.
And the man made his choice.I also wrote but did not develop the basics principles of spiritual warfare.
God could have annihilated the rebellious creature, the revolting angel Daystar, unilaterally. He would not. God would not completely judge Satan unilaterally. For His own reasons He would not lower to be the Creator destroying the creature.His way was to create man, another creature. And place him in between the Creator and the rebellious creature. Then the choice of the new creature would tip the balance in one direction or the other.Do not ask me Why God set up the universe this way.
But I do know that in the end Satan and the whole opposition party, via the cooperation of man, will be the eliminated forever.Man as created with both image and dominion. And he was created to be over the creeping enemy and not COME under him, as Adam's failure did. If you don't want to read through my writing then just don't. If you don't like my style or that I may be considering other's attention to my response, that is too bad.These are not easy issues. And if you only want little diddly 25 word responses all the time then you are talking to the wrong Bible student.
No problem. Go try your attacks against Christ and the Scripture on someone else who will give you nice one or two liners as answers to your objections.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

How about Christ bearing under the judgment of God for the sins of the world?How about by identifying with Him in faith God looks upon me as if I had never sinned ?If I were to ask God about what I did He would say "I don't remember. I don't know what you speak of. All your sins were dealt with on the cross in Jesus God's Son."I think in considering the situation I spend at least equal time as what God has done to put away my guilt. You seem to want to concentrate on the dilemma of inescapable responsibility for your transgressions.I like to spend good amount of time on how justification is so gracious in Christ's redemption. I like to consider God's love demonstrated in Christ's act of redemption which is so effective that it can erase all my guilt and present me faultless before God as if I had never sinned.Now my history is none other than Christ Himself.Do you find it more profitable to only chide over the matter of your having been warned that you inherited a sinful nature ? I like to look away towards Christ, His nature, His act and how God has made Him righteousness to me.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.