Dawn Bertot writes:
A quick note, hope Im not interfering and Ill be right out of the way
Hi. This thread has been all over the map. You certainly don't seem to be interfering in this free-for-all to me.
I often call Hank H on the Bible Answer man broadcast and ask a question here or there.
I was going to make a comparison between K(C)orban and the belief that Baptism does not save you
You may find my comments to kind of steer to include the topic of "Original Sin".
Since the command to "Honor your Father and Mother" was easy to understand but easily set aside by years of Rhetoric, ideology, interpretation and contrived Hermentics,
Those hemenutics grew up along side the simple command until it was actually suplanted and replaced within the concept of Corban. If you take what you were going to give to your parents to the temple, "its Corban", you are absolved of your responsibility in that area to honor your Father or Mother
"You teach as doctrine the commandments of men", Jesus said
When approached about the necessesity of water baptism to save you, Hank will say baptism doesnt save you it sets you apart. Or its the first act of obedience
Since we have very clear indications, statements and commands that it does actually save you, is it resonable to assume a teaching, Hermenutic could grow up around the clear purposes given for water Baptism as set out in the NT, to actually suplant its simple meaning
For example he says, "Its the Main and the Plain things we need to understand in the NT, on how we are to be saved
Citing Ephesians 2:8-9, which is very true, but not any less true that Mark 16:15-16 or 1Peter 3:21
Is it possible that time distance, preconcieved ideas, ideologies and reinforced hermenutics have like Corban, replaced the simple teaching of Water Baptism?
Since there is nothing unplain, cloudy or unclear about baptisms purposes, is it resonable to assume that The main and the plain approach is just another hermenutic
IYOP, is there a clear difference between Corban and the suplanting of the teaching Baptism, or did the same thing happen all over
I believe whatever pitfalls were encountered by religious Jews in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry are dangers to Christians. Those believers in the Tanach had a strong religious tradition. Today after 2,000 plus years Christians have possibly even a more entrenched religion.
And here I do not mean the word "religion" to be that positive. What I am trying to say is that as the Jews in the Gospel time had their commandments of men growing up, the Christians of today also have the same tendencies.
Now of the verses you mentioned, I lingered long in praying and reading over
First Peter 3:21. But I felt led to take in from verse 18 through about
4:4 for more context.
The
"saves you" verse 21 I think is more than justification from eternal perdition. Peter preached and witnessed the baptism of thousands in the book of Acts. And he went on to exhort the people to be saved from the then contemporary crooked generation:
quote:
"And with many other words he solemnly testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this crooked generation. Those then who received his word were baptized, and there were added on that day three thousand souls." (Acts 2:40,41)
Peter's preaching goes beyond simply man's need to be saved from eternal punishment. Peter's message addresses God's need to have a people living unto God in a vibrant church life community -
SAVED daily from the surrounding crooked generation.
There is no way a Christian can be
saved from the surrounding crooked generation without the realization that they have been crucified, buried, and raised with Jesus Christ - which baptism testifies. We cannot make it to escape the influence of the world, even if we have eternal redemption, if we are not so identified with Christ's death and resurrection. We have to stand upon the fact, by faith, that we have been crucified to the world and the world has been crucified to us.
I try to consider that sometimes "saved" in the New Testament has nuances of meaning. You sited
Ephesians 2:8,9:
quote:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast."
This salvation certainly meets the sinner's need to know that he or she has BEEN saved [past tense] through faith in Jesus Christ. But the very next verse speaks more of God's need to have a
masterpiece - POEMA. This corporate
"masterpiece" is like a grand work of art or music in a divine sense. The
masterpiece of God speaks of the kind of corporate
"walk" the saved people should have daily in the world. This is should be a collective testimony to the world around.
I put the passages together:
quote:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works that no one should boast.
For we are His MASTERPIECE, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand in order that we would walk in them."
I am trying to say that God's MASTERPIECE is the church consisting of the eternally saved also SAVED from the crooked society - walking in the highest standard of morality through the grace of the indwelling Christ. They who are saved from eternal judgment go on to be SAVED into the masterpiece of the normal church life testifying God's transformation power over former sinners.
My opinion is that sometimes "saved" or "saves you" or "salvation" in the New Testament includes this wider scope of God's operation.
See here that first the explicit apostolic teaching of Paul is that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus will be SAVED -
quote:
" That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED;
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation "
To me this is clear and I would encourage any seeking person to have confidence in calling
"Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus" to be SAVED from eternal separation from God.
But let's go on in that chapter. Paul then says -
quote:
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him. For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (vs.11,12)
I believe the scope of being
"saved" suddenly widens. We come into the riches of Christ by daily, even hourly, even moment by moment calling on His name in order to touch Him. Experience is that calling on the Lord Jesus SAVES us from our lust, our temper, our depression, our division among other Christians, our craving for the world, etc. We go on to walk daily in Christ by enjoying the riches of His grace. And one way to release those riches is by calling on His name -
"O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus".
So we are SAVED eternally by calling and confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in our hearts God has raised Him from the dead.
Then we go on to be SAVED for the sake of God's masterpiece by enjoying the riches of what and who Christ is in us. Living through His indwelling presence we are SAVED from the crooked generation around the ekklesia, the church as the called out community.
I think the larger scope of being saved is meant in
Mark 16:16
quote:
"He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned."
Over the years I have adopted the attitude that Mark's reference to believing and being baptized is for the salvation in a larger sense - to be saved not just from the last judgment, but from the whole surrounding crooked society. Believe and be baptized to be saved by faith you have been crucified, buried and raised to new life by identification with Christ.
And this salvation is a ever deepening matter. This salvation is an ever growing and widening matter as we discover more and more things we really need to be saved from. We do not know all the matters yet from which the indwelling Christ operates to save us.
Now if we go back to
First Peter 3:21, I think like
Mark 16:16 the
"saves you" refers to the larger scope of salvation.
Think about his analogy of the ark of Noah.
You see the ark SAVED the people from judgment.
But the WATER saved them from that current evil generation.
They eight individuals in the ark were saved from God's judgment by the ark.
But they were saved from that evil generation by the water.
You can see a relationship. And maybe you can see the nuances of the word
"saves" or
"saved".
quote:
"Which water, as the antitype, also now saves you, that is, baptism ... the appeal of a good conscience unto God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
When we proclaim "I have been crucified with Christ" faith in our identification with Christ's death saves us from many evil things in our fallen nature.
When we stand by faith saying "I have been buried with Christ and raised up with Christ" we release the grace of Christ into our being.
We do not trust ourselves. We do not trust any self improvement. We do not trust any self refinement. We are utterly identified with Christ in His being crucified and raised. Our history is Christ death and resurrection. And we utterly identify with being terminated with Him and raised with new life in Him.
This is the immersion into Christ that saves us in the widest sense. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
Having said that, I have to add that it is not possible for me to get into the realm of arguing about modes of physical baptism -
Ie. Is forward baptism more scriptural or backward?
Should it be "in Jesus name" or "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"?
Should it be by sprinkling or should your head go under the water?
Should the new believer be baptized immediately or wait for awhile?
I think when we get into fighting about the ritualistic aspect of how to baptized and what should be pronounced, we quickly fall into the hands of the enemy - into doctrinal divisions which are used by the enemy to cause Christians not to
"hold fast the Head" of the living Person of Christ Himself.
This doesn't mean I have no feeling about baptism.
I think to baptized "in the name of Jesus" can be uttered.
Or "We baptize you into the death of Christ" is just a good.
Or "We baptize you into the Body of Christ" is just as scriptural.
Or "We baptize you into one Spirit" is just as biblical.
Or "We baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is just a scriptural.
I think we Christians are often experts at missing the point.
Any one of these prayers / proclamations in faith is from the Bible.
Of course if we baptize into the death of Christ we baptize into the one Spirit and into the Triune God's name.
So I can't be drawn into a debate about Mark 16:16 or First Peter 3:21 on purely mechanical grounds of outward stuff. It is a matter of spiritual life and faith.
Finally, the sense of salvation from the world is more apparent to me in Peter's passage by these things:
1.) the need to be saved from the list of sinful activities \[b\]4:3
quote:
"For the time which has passed is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having gone on in licentiousness, lusts, debaucheries, carousings, drinking bouts, and lawless idolaties."
2.) the need to be saved from the "flood of dissoluteness" (v.4)
3.) the need to be saved from slander (v.4) and persecution's effect of discouragement (3:17) .
4.) the need to be saved from
"the lusts of men" (4:2)
5.) the need to be saved TO
"the will of God" (4:2)
So I think Peter had in mind
"water" of baptism now saves the believers from the crooked generation as he also exhorted in
Acts 2:40 - to be not only justified for eternal life but saved from the ways of the world which is headed for judgment.
Tell me a bit about what Hank Hanegraff would say. He's a good brother with the word.
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