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Author Topic:   Is faith the answer to cognitive dissonance?
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 173 of 227 (722666)
03-24-2014 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
03-23-2014 8:05 PM


Re: Why Not?
The Bible is clear that multiple witnesses are required to validate any claim
I don't know how clear that is. It appears that the standard of evidence in the bible is not so demanding.
quote:
Heb 11;1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 03-23-2014 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:02 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 175 of 227 (722669)
03-24-2014 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
03-24-2014 8:02 AM


Re: Why Not?
But the quote says that faith itself is the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:15 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 177 of 227 (722674)
03-24-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
03-24-2014 8:15 AM


Re: Why Not?
That's simply the situation with historical events. You have to decide whom to trust about those events and put your trust in their witness accounts. {ABE: Their accounts ARE evidence.
I would say that their accounts are testimony. If we compare the testimony to any physical evidence that is available we can make a judgement as to it's veracity. If there is no physical evidence and all that you have is the testimony (translated many times) then it is prudent to determine that you can not know for sure.
However, things like physical laws are evidence that some things could not have happened as reported. For example, the walls of Jericho were not felled by trumpets. It is a physical impossibility. This is strong evidence that the testimony is not accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 8:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:14 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 182 of 227 (722685)
03-24-2014 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:14 AM


Re: Why Not?
Even if we start with the assumption that there is a God and that he created the universe, why do people give more weight to the words of the Bible, something that we know men had a hand in creating, than they do to the physical evidence contained in the universe that he created?
Surely the inerrant word of God is written in the rocks and stars and light. Why is it so critically important that the first attempt at describing God be correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:41 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 200 by Phat, posted 03-25-2014 2:48 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 203 of 227 (722952)
03-25-2014 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:41 AM


Re: Why Not?
First, I'd never "start with the assumption that there is a God"
I was offering you the benefit of the doubt.
I am saying that the Bible provides abundant evidence that there is a God, a lot of it eyewitness evidence to miracles.
I look at the bible and see plenty of evidence that there were plenty of people who thought that there is a God. It is obvious to me that someone living 2500 yrs ago would see things happening every day that they could not explain. I am sure that if I were to witness any one of the miracles described in the bible I would offer a different explanation for what actually happened.
For example, I went looking for some modern day miracles and found this account from some guy writing about modern day miracles.
quote:
When David Newkirk, now a youth pastor at Church of the Open Door in Glendora, California, woke up in the middle of the night, he was still exhausted from a college basketball victory the day before.
"Twenty minutes after my head hit the pillow, I was catapulted out of the deepest sleep," he writes in the book. Along with his mother and sister, he was jerked awake to pray for his brother Dan.
Dan was in Israel. Running out of money, he had chosen to sleep on a park bench for the night. In the wee hours of the morning, a snarling dog woke him up, battling with a chicken under the bench.
Unable to break up the animals, Dan found another bench and resumed his rest. The next morning, a bomb exploded right next to the first bench, hurtling it through the air, leaving "a mess of tangled metal and concrete."
So this guy describes it as a miracle. Is that evidence that a miracle has taken place? I would describe it as a fortunate coincidence and certainly not evidence for the existence of God.
Second, it's a strangely weak omnipotent God who couldn't guide human beings to an honest report of witnessed events.
My thoughts as well which is why I think that they would not rely on the stories of ancient shepards written on parchments that fade. They would instead use the rocks and stars and light to let us know what is really going on. They would use immutable laws so that there could be no mistaking if you are right or wrong in your perception. Which, if there is a God, they have done.
Three a: the physical universe has to be interpreted too, there is nothing straightforward about what it presents to the human mind or it wouldn't have taken thousands of years before we learned anything of use about it.
Suck it up Buttercup! Who ever said that anything was going to be straightforward? Besides, when the child asks a question, do you just give them the answer or do you try and show them how to figure out the answer?
Three b: Show me where the physical universe gives evidence of what the Bible reveals of the Creation and Fall or the Flood or God's plan of redemption or the need for salvation answered by the incarnation of God Himself to die for us?
On this you are correct. There doesn't seem to be any evidence whatsoever.
We simply believe the Bible is the undistorted truth given by God Himself.
Why though is the question. How can these accounts be more credible than the Universe that is spread out before you? Why should they deserve more weight than what you can see with your own eyes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 03-26-2014 12:55 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 221 of 227 (723123)
03-26-2014 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
03-26-2014 12:55 AM


Re: Why Not?
I have so many points of disagreement. I think that it mostly boils down to what others have said in that your reasoning is circular.
Can God not be found without the bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 03-26-2014 12:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 03-26-2014 11:28 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 3:41 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 226 of 227 (723236)
03-27-2014 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
03-26-2014 11:28 PM


Re: Why Not?
The problem with finding God without the Bible is that God (the one that is found) is but a product of human imagination.
How is the God that I might find any different from the God that Moses or Mathew found?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 03-26-2014 11:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Coyote, posted 03-27-2014 11:29 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
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