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Author Topic:   Is faith the answer to cognitive dissonance?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 167 of 227 (722635)
03-23-2014 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
03-22-2014 1:20 PM


Why Not?
They think they want to see the wounds that Thomas saw? Why don't they just believe that Thomas saw them? They think they want to see the Red Sea part? Why not just believe Moses and all those who experienced it?
They want to see the Angel Gabriel talking to Mohammed? Why don't they just believe that Mohammed saw him? They want to see the golden plates the Book of Mormon was written on? Why not just believe Joseph Smith?
Because apart from any other consideration, dear Faith, if I followed that particular episteme I would end up as an adherent of every faith, and would probably have to stone myself to death while burning myself alive. The very least we can require for a method of identifying the One True Religion is that it should in fact identify one religion as true, rather than all of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 03-22-2014 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 03-23-2014 8:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 169 of 227 (722649)
03-23-2014 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
03-23-2014 8:05 PM


Re: Why Not?
The Bible is clear that multiple witnesses are required to validate any claim -- ABE: well, not any, but extraordinary claims such as the Bible makes /ABE -- as I said, and the Bible provides them abundantly. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith have no other witnesses than themselves.
You just make stuff up as you go along, don't you?
The Eleven Witnesses. Here we have some verifiably real people whom we know signed their names and otherwise publicly testified to Smith's story. Compare this with the basis of the rather more important claim in Genesis 1:1. We have that on the authority of an anonymous self-contradictory document which an unevidenced tradition ascribes to a man born 2368 years after the events he's describing, and whose own existence is doubtful --- insofar as he bears many hallmarks of being mythical, such as being able to do magic.
If, then, we use your criterion of multiple witnesses for extraordinary claims, we ought to be more certain of Smith's story about the golden plates than we should be of the claim that God created the heavens and the Earth, which we should categorize as extremely dubious.
ABE: Plus character witnesses against them.
I seem to remember there were character witnesses against Jesus.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 03-23-2014 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 4:57 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 189 of 227 (722708)
03-24-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
03-24-2014 4:57 AM


Re: Why Not?
The principle of multiple witnesses is very clear in the Bible and clearly exemplified in its accounts. So much of Moses' accounts is testified by multiple others there is no reason to doubt it when he gives a singular testimony as well.
A witness is someone who was there, not just someone who says something. I can find millions of people who'll say that Smith found the golden plates, they're called Mormons. But that doesn't make them witnesses.
All stories I've read about Joseph Smith's finding of the golden tablets have him finding them alone.
You seem to be quibbling on the difference between saying they saw him find them, and saying that they saw them. Very well, eleven people, twelve if we count Smith himself, say the plates existed. Is it OK if I say they didn't, or should I believe?
As for character witnesses, if you believe the Pharisees and not Jesus, oh well. And if you believe Joseph Smith and not the many locals who had known him as a con man, oh well. That's your bad choice to make.
I'm just pointing out that it's not really dispositive, is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 4:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 5:32 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 190 of 227 (722709)
03-24-2014 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
03-24-2014 9:32 AM


Re: Why Not?
The example of Moses I gave was in response to a challenge, it's not the norm. The parting of the Red Sea was experienced by millions, who are all eyewitnesses.
It doesn't work like that, Faith. If I write on a bit of paper: "A million people saw a pig fly", how many eyewitnesses are there to the flight of the pig?
If it hadn't happened surely we'd have heard reports from that time debunking it.
Why are there no reports debunking the story of Perseus and Andromeda? If it was false, wouldn't there be plenty of Ethiopians who'd come forward to say so?
One reason might be that the myth was invented a long time after the facts that it purports to describe. That would explain why there's nothing contemporary with the myth either debunking or confirming it.

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 Message 183 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 9:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 193 of 227 (722760)
03-24-2014 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
03-24-2014 5:32 PM


Re: Why Not?
Yeah, well since millions of people didn't write down what they witnessed, or we don't happen to have those millions of individual reports, we do have to believe those who wrote down that millions witnessed it.
No. we don't. If I write down "A million people saw a pig fly", we do not have to believe it.
You're very adept at getting rid of the truth along with the myths. I would think that eventually there wouldn't be anything left you could trust at all.
Well, I think I'm getting rid of the myths along with the other myths. If you want the stories of Christianity to be considered differently, to get special treatment, reason demands that this should be on the basis of some way in which they are actually different and special. The criterion you've proposed doesn't cut it. What I'd need is some reason to believe one set of far-fetched stories about magic, but not all the others. Otherwise, if it looks like a myth and it walks like a myth and it quacks like a myth ...
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 5:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
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