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Author | Topic: Would you give up your place in heaven... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why?
It would be evil, however, if the ten, upon meeting Jesus...still rejected Him.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Or maybe they don't want to accept a reward they don't deserve. Maybe they don't want to see you punished for what they did. Maybe the "bad guys" are actually nobler than you and your god.
Because I gave my life in eternity ...with Jesus...for them to go instead, and they were too proud and independent to allow the Creator of all seen and unseen to welcome them into His world. Phat writes:
What a horrible place.
They wouldn't belong in Heaven. One cant simply have a spot all their own in such a place.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You're misusing the quote.
No man is an island nor does any man really own one. We are all renters in this universe, whether we believe the landlord exists or not.quote:It's not about an alien overlord. It's about taking care of each other. "Any man's death diminishes me." If anybody goes to hell, I'm being punished too. If God offers you ten souls for yours, the proper thing to do is negotiate, like Abraham did for the Sodomites. Ask for ten billion.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I think the implication of the story is that the shepherd leaves the 99 in a safe place while he searches for the lost one. That's the opposite of your logic.
Look at Shepherd who leaves a herd of 99 sheep in order to rescue 1 solitary sheep Phat writes:
The question in the OP asks if you would, not if you "could".
What can you do for Him to be worth 7 billion souls?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If that was true, there would be no topic. Jesus sacrifiiced His life -temporarily - only for those of us who accept Him. The topic's question is: Would you sacrifice your life permanently for others?
...Jesus sacrificed His life for the benefit of all of us--- Phat writes:
If you don't have the love that He TOLD you to have, why would He want you?
I would never make a sacrifice simply out of altruistic love for others---quite honestly I dont have that much love naturally for the rest of humanity........and I wouldnt sacrifice for ten otherwise good people who had no interest in meeting the host of the venue.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You keep saying that AND you keep refusing to answer the question: Why is it that those who claim to have the impartation often don't show the love?
... we need Jesus (or Gods) impartation to even be able to have the necessary love. Phat writes:
We're all broken and imperfect. That's not an excuse for doing nothing. Even Noah was responsible for his own salvation. ... my point is that He died (and lived) for broken imperfect people...not for do-gooders who are willing and able to lay their lives down...macho style....like a fearless commando taking a bullet to protect ten. (What he should have done was jam a bunch of his broken and imperfect neighbours into the ark.)
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Clearly not, since those who are supposedly in communion are no better than those who are not.
We need communion. Phat writes:
But we're the only ones we can count on to do anything.
We cant do it all ourselves... Phat writes:
Remember what the thread is about: exchanging what He does for us with what He does to others.
... and He wont do it all for us. Phat writes:
Then what's the point of attributing anything to God?
People who attribute all the credit to God often dont hold up their end of the bargain.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, let's not waste too much time trying to make sense of the Flood story.
So lets think a minute... Phat writes:
In the Flood story, God chooses who will live and who will die. Apparently, the criterion he used was that "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." (Genesis 6:9) Does God save us(empower us, cleanse us, choose us..etc...) or do we willfully become better people...of our own initiative. Later on, apparently of their own initiative, Noah and his descendants descended into the same reprobate behaviour, making the whole Flood exercise a failure. We have to wonder about God's ability to choose.
Phat writes:
We have only God's Word for it that He chose the right ones to save. We also have His Word for it that it didn't work.
If the latter, I could see the sinful neighbors being given another chance. Phat writes:
Some would argue that we don't (and cant) save ourselves. In which case rescuing the evil neighbors would be pointless...quote:Sometimes you gotta do what's right, even if it's pointless.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Our consciences.
Who determines whats right? Phat writes:
That depends on the circumstances. Personally, I don't like lavish parties so I'd do anything to avoid it. If I thought somebody else might "benefit" from the party more than I would, it would make sense to send them. If the host objected to me sending a substitute, he's no friend of mine.
Lets say you were invited to a lavish party by someone who knew you rather well.Do you give your invitation to someone whom your host may not know?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kjsimons writes:
If you try to make sense of the Bible, you wind up with nonsensical conclusions, such as birds riding on the heads of dinosaurs. So if you can take something useful from a Bible story you should cut and run before you get mired in the details. It's really does reflect poorly on the god of the old testament and does beg the question of why would he do it if it was destined to fail? The Flood story might tell you that God will save you if you trust in Him. Or it might tell you that you have to build your own ark. What it should NOT tell you is that it really happened.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I also have problems with Long John Silver.
This highlights the ongoing problems that you have with God. Phat writes:
Well, he'd have to mend his ways if he wanted any respect from me, YES.
You seeminglyinsist that He revise and relax His rules... Phat writes:
You're being dishonest. Most of them don't curse him to his face. Many of them follow him. But it isn't his actual followers that he embraces, according to your theology; it's only those who profess, "Lord!, Lord!"
...that He include all of your vagabond homeless friends on the guest list even if they curse Him to His face... Phat writes:
I don't mind giving jar the credit. But believe it or not, a thought or two did cross my mind before I joined EvC.
...and tainted by jars propaganda, you also seemingly act as if God is simply a character in a book that humans have a responsibility to rebuke. Phat writes:
If he really wanted to draw humanity closer, there wouldn't be much room for rejection.
IF there is a Creator of all seen and unseen Who desires to draw humanity closer...is it really up to us to school God on whom to accept or reject? Phat writes:
Isn't that what Jesus said? Didn't he tell a story about a Good Shepherd who went out to find the one sheep who had missed the cut?
So are you suggesting that we resist accepting what He does for us and bargaining for the release of others---especially those who miss the cut? Phat writes:
Since we have the Knowledge of Good and Evil, yes, we do have to "play God" in the sense that we have to take responsibility - and that includes being our brother's keeper.
It suggests that we play God ourselves and snub our noses at the "Host" unless He allows us to bring our grungy guests with us... Phat writes:
Why not give us the right to decline the invitation? If my brother isn't invited to the party, why would I want to go?
...why not give Him the right to refuse service to whomever he wishes? Phat writes:
Yes.
Do we love people more than Him? Phat writes:
I don't mind being unworthy.
Matthew 10:37(ESV) writes:Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me
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