Prophecy for Buzsaw

Mark, I just LOVE the way some decide to structure the lives of others without much consideration to whether one has enough time for that particular structuring at any given period to respond adequately, for to respond to all the spin, nonsense and other flak one encounters in such discussion here requires considerable effort and time, as has been demonstrated in the past.Then, not only that, but you want the discussion to be according to the rules of one of your own persuasion. Biblical prophecy doesn't quite work the way Percy has it in the rules, in that all prophecies must be isolated to one reference (rule 3), for example, and in rule 2 where he says 'the complete prophecy must be fulfilled.'Having said the above, I'd be happy to regurgitate and rehash one of my favorite specific prophecies Jesus made in his famous Olivet Discourse, as addressed in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The problem is here that the desciples of Jesus asked him concerning what events to look for as to his 2nd advent return and as to what to look for in order to determine when these 'latter days' will come. As in your science and toe, it's not always simple enough to address in the context of one paragraph statement of the prophet.One of my favorite prophecies has already been discussed at length, which is the fulfillment of the segment of Jesus's Olivet Discourse regarding the reocupation of Jerusalem, but you people insisted upon isolating phrases/statements within the whole prophecy and spinning these in the desperate attempt at refuting the prophecy's credibility. If you wish to continue with this prophecy in this new thread, I'd be willing to restate my position and go from there at a pace I'm able to handle at this busy time in my life and business.

Mike, Percy, as you know, happens to be the owner who does indeed intimidate me at times with his blunt warnings about my mode of debate while winking at some other stuff that goes on, but all in all he runs a pretty efficient shop here. As long as he will tolerate me, I appreciate the opportunity to be here and participate.

Asgara is getting uptight about pages being consumed on setting the rules and rightly so. Why not just use the standard forum rules and let the chips fall where they may, rather than going through all this rhetoric.

The Olivet Discourse of Jesus shortly before he was to be executed, in answer to the query of the desciples as to his return and the end times is one prophecy but it gives somewhat of a prophetic overview of what will happen from that point until the end times and the 2nd advent.1. I'll pick the Mark 13 account for the format, but when the Matthew 24 and the Luke 21 parallel renderings of the discourse, they must apply. That's the way the gospels work All of the three likely remembered or wrote according to their memory of what Jesus said, none contradicting, but contributing. The Bible requires that two or three witnesses come to play for preservation and accuracy of the message. This is one of my contentions with the Quran and the Book of Mormon. The witness and credibility of the one person is all one has to go on.2. From the onset it MUST be understood that given all the stuff that must take place until the return of Jesus and the end time put forth in this prophecy, the statement in verse 30 about the generation passing cannot in any way shape or spin apply to the living generation at the time Jesus spoke the words.

1. That "one rule trips up any prophecy made in the Bible" would also apply to toe and other sciences, so we're back to square one on that issue.2. Whoever among the creos have ever used Peter and the cock for argument of debatable evidence for the Bible?3. This is in no way as you state, a "very significant" prophecy. In all the thousands of sermons and all the books I've read on prophecy, this is not even significant enough to mention so far as the study of eschatology. It is most often used and referenced to in addressing the crucifixion events in Jesus' life.

My intended point was that unlike Mohammed and Joe Smith, Jesus never wrote his own gospels. Two or more witnesses quoted him and wrote the books.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

1. You err. The exile-and-return is recorded in both Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32.2. I will clarify my understanding of the witnesses. There were up to 12 or more witnesses to much of what is in the gospels, but on occasion only one scribe recording certain specific events, unlike Mohammed and Joe Smith who were sole witnesses of their own alleged unique spiritual experiences. Most of the important events including those events of miracle in his life were not only witnessed, but recorded by two or more. Most of this is contrary to the consensus of the most reliable older sources of information and pure hopeful conjecture to discredit the gospels, imo. If you want to do a thread on it with your evidence, go for it, but I'm too busy to research every argument that comes up. Itemize ALL the events and descriptions prophesied, read, think and add up the minimum REASONABLE time that would be required. Then, go, figure. Oh, you mean impossible like we creos believe natural selection producing the entire universe and everything in it is impossible?How about highly unlikely, like it's very unlikely a nation of people would be scattered worldwide and return to their homeland as an identifiable nation 19 plus centuries later to reoccupy the land and city under fire from ten times the surrounding enemy forces? As I stated at the onset, the prophecy covers all the time from the time the prophecy was spoken until the latter days, the return of Jews, and the return of Jesus. I came to this discussion with the understanding I am to follow the general forum rules and not those of your evo friend designed specifically for this thread. If that's not permissible, let Percy or the moderators say the word and I'll move on to another forum. I'm addressing the events of the prophecy which have thus far been fulfilled. Jesus has not yet returned yet, has he? The sun and moon have not yet dimmed yet, have they? But the fig tree is blooming again after all those centuries of desolation aren't they; and Israel became a nation eventually occupying the strategic old city of Jerusalem with the gentile occupation ending haven't they? Get real. If I required a thousandth of all this detail you people are requiring of me as to all the stuff you are claiming to be 10 million years ago, I'd be thrown outa town in short order wouldn't I?

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz< !--UE-->[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 01-10-2004]

What the prophecy is clearly implying, as the context of the chapter, as well as the events ocurring when "this generation" passes, is that "this generation" means the generation which witnesses the things stated were to happen in the prophesied latter days.For example, I might be a military officer talking to a tank crew. I might be in charge of Company A. I say we will do such and such. After that Company B will then do such and such and so on until I get down the line to company E. Then I might say, On Monday, next week, such and such is going to occur, and THIS COMPANY WILL MOVE OUT before the operation is completed. Now, which company is "THIS" company, Company A, to whom I am talking or Company E? It's E, of course, the last company. How do you know? The context makes that clear. So with the prophecy.I've gone over this before generation matter in another thread, but there it is for this thread. Take it for what it's worth. I'm not not going to get bogged down about that again here.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

Yah, PaulK, you're right and I stand corrected. I was still thinking of the generation statement being talked about so much, which by the way is in all three gospels.Regardless though, the desciples had such a close knit relationship that I'm sure they all knew the story well which is evidenced by the absence of contradiction in the three accounts and the detail of the discourse given. The Matthew account states that his desciples were with him and asked him "privately." Then in Mark 13 when he leaves the temple, "one desciple" asks him about the temple. He and the desciples then went to the Mount of Olives and "Peter, James, John, and Andrew" ask him when "these things" shall come to pass, etc and he goes on with the discourse. Now, we are sure that the desciples did the recording, but some seemed to have that duty. It is unclear as to exactly how many desciples heard the discourse, though four were listed in Mark as asking the question. These four may have asked him and after they all sat together he may have given the answer to all. We don't know. We do know the ones who recorded the words of Jesus gave close enough accounts with enough detail that It can be assumed the account was accurate because of the lack of contradiction concerning the message. That 12 people were closely and devoutly involved with Jesus adequately satisfies the witness matter in all things pertaining to his ministry.The fact that the three accounts are not worded the same shows that three, not one, as in the Quran or the BOM, author the story about what was said and that in itself should satisfy the witness matter, for they either had to have been there and heard what Jesus said or all three did their own homework to get the facts to report and get the facts about what was said.

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, Brian, Mark opened this thread on his own without regard to the time I might have for response and it has hit me at a very busy time with my business. I said I'd go with it so long as I can participate at my own pace. It is suppose to be a thread about the significant prophecy that I choose, if understand correctly. I have chosen the Olivet Discourse of Jesus and have made some statements on that, but have a lot more to say when I can get some time. In the mean time it seems to be going every whichy way. Why is this? Why can't it be either kept on topic or rest til I can get back to it?[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 01-13-2004]

PaulK, remember what I said back on page three about the need to factor in all the data from all three accounts of the discourse, since they all are recording the same event? That's how the gospels work. I said I would use Mark 13 for the format, but that when Matthew and Luke apply, they must be considered. It's like in determining scientific theory. You use all the information to support the evidence for you proposition.With that in mind, note that the discourse is about a whole lot more than the destruction of the temple. That is really the first event. Matthew makes that clear.1. As they leave the temple, the desciples were pointing out to him the greatness of the temple. Jesus said that it was to be demolished.2. Then the group proceeds to the Mount of Olives, another hill and sat around talking. Some desciples come to him and ask him the following:
A. "When shall these things be?" Matt 24:3
B. "What shall be the sign of your coming," referring of course his 2nd advent return as he prophesied. same verse
C. "....and of the end of the world?" Note: That word world is a poor translation. The common Greek word for world is kosmos. That is not that word that is in the Greek text from which this was taken. The word here is aionos which is better translated "age."So, yes he was answering about the temple, but much more as the text which follows proves. The temple was to be the first major event of the discourse.Nice try, my friend, but your airplane is still on the ground.

..........Back to Mark and proceeding with verse 5:
"And Jesus began to say to them, 'Take heed that no man lead you astray. Many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and shall lead many astray. And when you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled; these things must needs come to pass; but the end (end of age) is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There shall be famines. These things are the beginning of travail."Note that last phrase indicating these are only the beginnings and there's more to come, which he goes on to discuss. For now I'll leave it there for your responses to this point. I will be coming and going so bear with me and thanks for your patience.

I've never emphasised the war/earthquake/famine statements in this discourse prophecy as the significant aspects of this prophecy, nor did Jesus. He told the desciples very clearly not to get excited about these, because these are not what they were to look for as to his return or the end of the age. These statements are significant though in establishing the generation argument though, for it takes time for many wars as well as many earthquakes as well as many famines to pass in history.1. He is simply saying THESE MUST COME FIRST BEFORE THE VERY SIGNIFICANT SIGNS I AM GOING TO TELL IN THIS PROPHECY.2. The second thing he wants them to understand is that THE TIME FOR THE SIGNIFICANT END TIME STUFF IS GOING TO BE WAY OUT IN THE FUTURE. THE TIME IS NOT IMMINENT. LOTS OF STUFF COMES FIRST.3. The third thing he wants them to understand is that THIS PROPHECY IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE TEMPLE. SIGNIFICANTLY, I WANT YOU TO KNOW WHEN THE END TIME AND MY RETURN IS TO COME. THE TEMPLE IS ONLY THE BEGINNING OF WHAT'S COMING.4. The fourth thing is what I want you to see about the discourse prophecy in all three accounts; that it was not just about the temple IN ANY OF THE THREE GOSPELS and the emphasis is the same in each and every account, showing that though some didn't record certain aspects of the questions, you go by what is relevant in all three of the gospels. This is how the gospels work and this is why more than one recording; so all the pertinent info would be included as each remembered or chose to write.5. There are no contradictions in the three accounts; only ommisions by some which were covered by others.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

......i.e. non response. Really? Let's itemize and see.
1. Wars and rumors of wars.
2. Many false christs arise.
NOTE: Important statement at this point: "be not troubled: the end is not yet." {end time not yet} So even after many wars and rummors of wars, time of end and end of prophecy in future.
3. "Nations shall rise against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms"
NOTE: How many of these in a few decades? Not many likely.
4. Famines and earthquakes in MANY DIFFERENT PLACES.
NOTE: Again, sounds like centuries here.
5. Again, this reminder by Jesus: "But these things are the BEGINNING of trouble."
NOTE: So EVEN AFTER all these wars, uprisings, earthquakes in many place and famines WE HAVE ONLY BEGUN towards the end of the age and the prophecy.
6. Many false prophets arise to lead many astray
7. Gospel will be preached to ALL NATIONS, before the end time of the age can come. No way has this occured in the then present generation.
8. trouble and tribulation unprecedented in the history of the world.
9. Sun and moon darkened AFTER ALL THIS STUFF. {Revelation says a third darker.} Never happened yet.
10. Some kind of stars fall from heaven and the heavens "shaken."
Nothing resembling this yet.
11. People disappear from earth suddenly for no explanable reason. Not yet
12. The generation that sees "the fig tree bud" will not pass untill all is fulfilled.
13. The gentiles occupy the city of Jerusalem until THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES ARE FULFILLED.>>>>>>>>FULFILLED IN THE 1967 SIX DAY ISRAEL ARAB WAR WHEN JEWS FOR FIRST TIME SINCE THE PROPHECY REOCCUPY THE CITY.<<<<<<<NOTE: The word "until," meaning Jews will reoccupy the city before the generation passes and the end time comes.
14. The fig tree and ALL THE OTHER TREES BEGIN TO BUD, implying the land has been desolate a long time. No way in a generation.So you see, Paulk, read over all these events and then tell me how all this "stuff" can come and go in the few decades of a generation. NO WAY! Jesus is giving a message for all generations of Christians here, as in much of his teachings. It is obvious that his desciples could not see all these events in their generation. That idea is ludicrous. Your witness rebutal is moot as nobody knows exactly who all of the apostles were present. We are only told who asked the questions.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

1. It says "diverse" which means many different. You don't know that there were earthquakes every year. The implication is that they would be destructive and notable enough for historical record. How many famines in the first half of the first century? Again this is implying major historical events.2. Jesus said the gospel would be preached to all the world. That's what he meant and you can't prove otherwise, no matter how you spin.3. The gathering of the elect of Jesus, (i.e. Christians) from earth to heaven is in Mark 13:28. Check it out.4. I've proved that the text implicates the generation of the latter events of the prophecy when the fig tree buds and though the budding is symbolic, it symbolizes the return of the nation with the Jews again occupying the land and specifically the city. That the fig tree and all the other trees are now literally budding after centuries of desolation is significant reality also, given that it was the returned Jews who made that happen.5. Your point that the tribulation must last 2000 years is nonsense. It is one of the major events of the latter days and which we are beginning to see in many foreign lands. There has always been some tribulation, but Jesus said this would be greater than anything yet known.6. You can't sweep the gentile nations (plural) occupation and re-entry of Jews under the rug - get real.PaulK, I'm sorry but I'm too busy to deal with all the spin and yada you come up with in your weak attempt to cram 19 centuries into one generation in order to defend your looser ideology. History speaks for itself, especially the recent phenomenon of the return of the long dispersed Jews to return to the land as prophesied even long before Jesus was born. If you can't see the significance of it all, that's too bad. I am highly criticised and admonished for rejecting the alleged evidence you people think you have for what you believe, yet you continually reject relatively recent historical evidence for my views.