Prophecy for Buzsaw

Lets start with your end point. Exactly WHICH "historical fact" is it that I supposedly reject ? You've never actually explicitly said. So I definitely want to know that.On to your other points.1) I reiterate my reply on the meaning of diverse. It doesn't need to be that many, and a few decades provides sufficient time. And if it did not then the prophecy would be impossible anyway, so your argument is self-defeating2) Firstly any claim to divinity on the part of Jesus is exactly the sort of thing the claim of prophecy is supposed to support. It is begging the question to assume that Jesus had any special knowledge.And since I have already pointed out that the Gospel was not preached to "all nations" in the timescale allowed by the prophecy that element is a failure.3) I did indeed read the verse, which is how I knew that it contained no reference to people disappearing. (I assume that you forgot to consider that the elect would include people already dead).4) You are the one who tried to claim that the prophecy of the fig tree referred to a literal event. And you are still trying to link it to a literal event despite the fact that there is nothing there to support such a reading.5) You are simply ignoring the point that Luke puts verses that are part of the Tribulation as starting with the siege of Jerusalem. And you accuse me of spin ! Read the Bible instead of relying on your preconceptions of what it must mean.6) I'm not doing a "spin and sweep job" - that's your style. I'm the one that provides all the evidence - you just try and force it into your preconceptions, ignorign the facts that don't fit. Please stop using this dishonest tactic of making false accusations instead of discussing the facts. My arguments are not "KO'd" - they have yet to even be seriously addressed. Your position is on the ropes.If you REALLY want to claim victory then you can start by addressing my post on where the destruction of the Temple fits into the Prophecy. Post 143

I don't have time to say much and Percy has adequately addressed your claims on the dating of Luke.I will answer your point 1.It is a fact that some Christians HAVE claimed that prophecioes referring to the return from ther Babylonian Exile WERE fulfilled by the modern return of the Jews to Israel. I am only suggesting that it is possible that Christians in the past thought in a similar way and that that is another possible reason why Luke would add a return from exile.
There is nothing clearly unreasonable in that, despite your scorn.And your point 2
The destruction of the Temple is one of the main focuses of the whole prophecy as you well know. That happened in 70 AD. If it did not "fulfill the prophecy" then you are saying that the prophecy has failed. Unless you want to say that the same buildings can be destroyed twice !

Percy,1. Obviously, you are of the more liberal theological mindset who reads and recognizes the authors of that mindset. I am not and most more literalist religious conservative authors I am aware of go with the earlier dates.2. What documentation do you have for your claim that the writer of Luke and Acts had the intent of deceipt in writing these books??

As for the temple destruction, I maintain that this is only the beginning of the long list of events to happen in the prophecy. There's reasonably and logicaly just way too much here to happen, mainly the dispersal and return of Jews to restore the land and city to happen in the generation to whom Jesus gave the prophetic discourse. I see any further regurgitation of this, what imo, should be very obvious, is futile and I'm tired of wasting my time whistling my tune in the wind to upwind ears.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

Hi, Buzz! My views are based upon evidence rather than any preformed conservative or liberal mindset. I think the author of Luke wrote in the style of the time. In his own mind he practiced no deceipt, but merely passed on information he sincerely believed to be true in a form familiar and acceptable to his intended audience.--Percy

The most important prophecy, that Jesus would return within some of their lifetimes, failed almost 2000 years ago.--Percy

Hello buzsaw,You made mention in an earlier post that you were not referring to the various predictions of "rumors of wars" and "earthquakes" to support your claim that specific prophecy has been fulfilled. Also, if the "armies surrounding Jerusalem" phrase wasn't referring to 70 a.d. then it is still future and, thus, unfulfilled.So that I can understand exactly what it is you are claiming, would you please list which specific prediction you are claiming has been fulfilled and the event which you think was the fulfillment.ThanksAmlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 01-17-2004]

I believe that the real prophecy has been hidden from the eyes of humanity in order to conceive our future. The real prophecy is only known to a cult named 'The 3rd Dan' - or something like it (forgot the real name). The prophesy was also first retrieved by a small population belonging to 'judaism'. 'The 3rd Dan' consists mainly of the world's most powerful leaders, (e.g- Mr.G.Bush and many others). The prophecy believed by 'The 3rd Dan' states that the world will end from 50 to 250 years from present...if not saved. It also states that Jews will be the rulers of our future which is why the Jews are being supressed by great world leaders. Adolf Hitler 'supposedly' belonging to 'The 3rd Dan' took matters into his own hands by trying to end the prophecy by slaughtering the Jews. It is also written that a 'man made' desease will be created resulting in human catastrophe. This desease is what we know as 'AIDS'.But wait a minute!!! AIDS originated from monkeys right?!?Well not exactly! Updated research revealed that monkeys cannot carry 'AIDS' meaning they are not the cause of such desease. Had they carried the desease, they would have died upon receiving the virus. Many people originally believed that it was a laboratory virus created as a test which gave unsuspecting results. 'AIDS' was implanted in the african population at first - telling them it was a vaccine against 'Malaria'.The prophecy says the world will end if the 'one eyed man' wins over the people of the world. It is he who will spread the desease to end humanity and all that shares its land. On one of the 'dollar' bill, if you look in the corner you will notice that there is an 'eye' printed. What for?...don't ask.On top of Area-51 a satellite image once revealed a shape which resembled an 'eye'.The pyramids, designed by the egyptians but built by the slaves who happened to be Jewish, also has an 'eye' at most entrances of several pyramids.The 'new' bible apparently has scriptures missing which should have revealed Jesus's crusade from the age of 22 - 40yrs. But hey! Its missing! Until found in the scriptures that between the age of 22-40yrs, Jesus appears to have done quite a bit of killing himself. Conquering villagers with his uncle to happened to be a warrior, Jesus decided to follow his uncle's path of life. Changing his name afterwards, he was presumed dead. His surviving victims claiming he was god and he was nailed to a cross and burnt alive, was all the work of art created by Jesus and his uncle in order to escape the amry against his act amongst their people - This army were the Roman army.I'll post many more in a few days time - right now I have to go.

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Nax Phoenix

Nat, It's not a prophecy then, is it?Mark

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"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

I've already put good reasons against the Temple being anywhere near the beginning of the prophecy.Your argument that the time span must have been greater is far from the "logical" certainty you would have us beleif. Consider for instance the famines - under your interpetation that means we must wait for the normally occurring famines to reach some unknown large total. But it is possible to have famines in "diverse" places in a single year. Is it possible for the Jews to be dispersed and regather in a few decades ? I would say so - and it is clear that the author of Luke who is the most likely source of this statement believed it. Hopw long did the Babylonian Exile last ?But even if your arguments were good it would hardly help your position. If you want to argue that the prophecy as written just couldn't happen then that is no reason to pretend that it doesn't mean what it says - which is what you would have us do. All it does is add to the evidence that it is a failure - as well as providing evidence that Jesus made grandiose and false claims.But still there are other more important issues to deal with, as I have stated. That you prefer to waste time losing an argument that could only hurt your position is itself a clear sign of how weak your position really is.

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As for the temple destruction, I maintain that this is only the beginning of the long list of events to happen in the prophecy. There's reasonably and logicaly just way too much here to happen, mainly the dispersal and return of Jews to restore the land and city to happen in the generation to whom Jesus gave the prophetic discourse.

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Buz... can you clarify here? Because it sounds like you're saying, "He couldn't have meant one generation, because that would mean his prophecy was impossible."So? Wouldn't that just mean his prophecy was wrong?

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"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still

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'The 3rd Dan' consists mainly of the world's most powerful leaders, (e.g- Mr.G.Bush and many others).

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If by "consists mainly of" you mean "enjoys making a sex toy out of", then yeah. Spot on, man.The 3rd Dan is more powerful than you can possibly know.

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"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still

And don't forget the Tribulation starting in 70 AD...But I think that there is one thing that clearly shows the problems with this prophecy:The destruction of the Temple is one of the major points of the prophecy. It actually happened. Even mainstream scholars usually put Mark before that destruction. Yet it isn't put forward as a success - and it seems that Buzsaw simply wants to assume that it must happen near the beginnng - he offers no justification from the text and doesn't seem inclined to discuss it.The reason why is plain to see. The prophecy failed. If the early part of the prophecy is taken as referring to a long time as Buzsaw insists then the Temple was destroyed way too early. If it is taken as a short time then the Tribulation and second coming should be long past.

Hi PaulK,I really didn't want to make this kind of post be my first, but here goes anyway.Another way of looking at the second coming of Christ, is to bring the prophecy into the future. The destruction of the 'temple' prophecy seems to be a major stumbling point. Assuming that Christ knew Christianity would develop, then I also assume that Christ knew the "seat" of Christianity would be the Vatican. If you look at the Vatican as being the Temple of Christianity, the temple in the prophecy most definityly is still in tact -- at the moment.I have hesitated to post this because I can find absolutely no other references that even hint at a slant toward moving the entire second coming prophecy into Vatican City and out of the mid-east. If Christ was telling about the future, bring those statements INTO the future. It opens an entire new concept of what might have been said and implied and what may or will be going on.A side-note if that's ok? If anybody happens to know of a site or reference that has an acceptable explanation as to why the Vatican is not at Jerusalem, I would really, really appreciate the info. I have come up absolutely empty on this.

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Azure Moon
Free-Thinkers: Those who, abandoning the religious truths and moral dictates of the Christian Revelation, and accepting no dogmatic teaching on the ground of authority, base their beliefs on the unfettered findings of reason alone. Catholic Encyclopedia.

I'm afraid that you actually need to read the prophecy. It starts with the disciples talking about specific buildings - identified as the Herodian extensions to the Temple - and those are the buildings to be destroyed.Mark 13 (NASB)
1 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"
2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."There really is no doubt that the buildings in question are in Jerusalem, near the Temple.I'm not entirely certain exactly why the Vatican is in Rome but I suspect that the relationship with the Roman state was a major factor. The "official" reason is that Peter was first Bishop of Rome (which is not certain, but may well be true), and that Peter's leadership of the disciples was passed on to his successors in that see.I suggest that this issue should be discussed in a different thread, if you are interested.