Religion or Science - How do they compare?

Do you believe there exists anything of ultimate transcendent value independent of time and culture?There are people who do believe such a thing exists. Those are the people whose ramblings you consider to be crazy and pure fantasy.

No you will get what you actually choose, whatever it is.God has to give us the spiritual ability to choose salvation, but we choose whatever we choose in any case. If you want salvation that means God has given you that ability to choose iit so if you choose it you will have it, and if you choose against salvation you won't be saved. In every case you get what you choose. Nobody will feel that they didn't get what they wanted.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There is no connection whatever. I quoted four statements that say salvation is by grace and not works and gave a link to more of the same. It's all there in black and white. You don't have to agree with it or anything, just acknowledge the simple fact that they all say the same thing, and that therefore the concept is biblical.If you want to quote Alice in Wonderland in a number of places on the same subject and ask me to acknowledge that fact I will happily do so.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I don't see it as simply choosing salvation. I'd say it is more about choosing the motivation for how we live our lives regardless of any thought of salvation.I think that a strong scriptural reference for that is Matthew 25.

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34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

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If you notice the good guys had no idea that what they were doing was for Jesus. They just did it because in their heart it was the right thing to do. If we live lives of sacrificial love because that is where we find joy then that is what God honours. If we choose to live a life where we focus on our own needs then God will honour that choice as well.Also if you notice in that quote from Mathew there is no talk of getting their doctrine right. It is simply that God honours a good heart regardless of their doctrine.

Oh, well, that is so much better isn't it.------------------------------------------------------------Yes, I have two baskets of apples. A basket of red apples and a basket of green apples. You can choose whichever you want."I would like a red apple, please."Go away, boy. You bother me.NEXT!

If by that you mean I'm bringing knowledge into the discussion, I'll happily agree. Good. And we know how that works. I see you've substituted the word 'view' for your more usual 'belief'. It doesn't change anything; you still have absolutely no support for it. That is not a belief, it's a fact. It's a fact that you've already accepted. Empathy is an evolved brain function. Evolution you accept is an unguided process. A "mindless' process as you tell us all the time.Are you now changing your mind? Is empathy not an evolved trait? Or is evolution a guided process? Repeating what you belief without any evidence and against what we know and have supportfor is not saying anything useful. It is not.If evolution is a 'mindless', random process a God is not involved. Make up your mind, is it guided or is it unguided?

I have no idea what that means. I will happily believe you. People can and do believe almost anything. What is your point?

Well, people seem to think that God is doing something against your will by choosing whom to save, but whatever He does is very consistent with your will. Let me try again. We are all "born of the flesh<' since the Fall, we've lost the spiritual connection with God that Adam and Eve had, so we are unable to appreciate or choose the things of the spirit. God however has decided to save some number of us. He doesn't have to do that, it's also His sovereign choice. He could leave us all to go to Hell. But He chooses some and He chooses the timing too. Some of us get born again, that is, regenerated, that is, have our spirits renewed that were lost at the Fall, so we can choose the things of God. Until that happens we're all "at enmity with God," the wole human race. Those who remain at enmity have no interest in spiritual things. If you have even a little interest you can ask God to increase it and He will, He doesn't act against our desire to be spiritually renewed or saved. I keep being amazed that nobody here seems to be interested, just committed to hating the whole idea. I figure that confirms the Bible's statement that we are all at enmity with God although I often wish it weren't so true. Anyway, we do choose, we choose based on our fleshly inclinations or based on our renewed spirit. I wish many of you all at EvC would desire salvation.

The thing is, GDR, as I just wrote to AZPaul, you can't have a good heart unless God renews your spirit, meaning regenerates you, meaning you are born again, and that IS salvation or the first stage of it. Salvation is salvation from the Fall first and foremost, from the sin nature we inherited from Adam at the Fall, the sin nature that is merely "flesh" and always chooses selfishly and always chooses fleshly things. Salvation means we will eventually be freed of all sin and all its consequences, but not until after this life. That altruistic heart you keep talking about comes from tht renewed spirit. Some of those who are still "in the flesh" have more of that altruistic spirit than others just naturally but that's not what Jesus is talking about, He's talking about a completely regenerated human being, who is "born of the Spirit." And similarly some of us get born again from a particularly selfish mean spirit and have farther to go than others to "put on the new man" of Christlikeness. I'll cop to that one, if I can be saved anyone can be saved. But God loves even us and patiently guides us..Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

I’ll just touch in the most important point.According to Calvinism who is saved and who isn’t is purely a matter of God’s will. Our choices don’t enter into it.So when you say:

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If you have even a little interest you can ask God to increase it and He will, He doesn't act against our desire to be spiritually renewed or saved.

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You are implicitly going against Calvinism.

Not necessarily. Some people "in the flesh" have an interest in spiritual things just naturally, or such an interest could be from God who is working on the soul toward salvation, and in any case I'd want to encourage it so that the person might yet pursue salvation. Nobody knows whom God has chosen so any slight signs are to be encouraged and magnified and if they are from God He will increase them. Actually if anybody really likes the idea of Christian salvation and wants to pursue it, I wouldn't want to judge the cause of it, if you seek it you'll find it, if you knock He will answer. And not to leave anyone out, even the most resistant to the idea could yet get magnificently saved. "God works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform." Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I broke a small promise to myself not to waste my life trying to work out what nonsense people choose to believe and looked up Calvansm an predestination. It'll be a while 'til I do that again. Leis Carrol couldn't make this shit up.

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Predestination
Main article: Predestination in Calvinism

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Reformed theologians teach that sin so affects human nature that they are unable even to exercise faith in Christ by their own will.

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While people are said to retain will, in that they willfully sin, they are unable not to sin because of the corruption of their nature due to original sin.

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Reformed Christians believe that God predestined some people to be saved. This choice by God to save some is held to be unconditional and not based on any characteristic or action on the part of the person chosen.

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This view is opposed to the Arminian view that God's choice of whom to save is conditional or based on his foreknowledge of who would respond positively to God.

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....and so on. Make up anything you like...

That's a good clear statement of it, basically what I've been trying to say.The problem people have with these things is that Calvin was a master at thinking things through from God's point of view. I think it was Luther who advised against talking to new believers (much more so unbelievers) about predestination and other facets of the Christian life from God's point of view because we are mere human beings who can't grasp it and we'll only make a mess of trying to understand it. Alll the basics from the human point of view are also true and more accessible: Just "believe on Jesus Christ and be saved."Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I have no idea what you're trying to say, none of it makes any sense to me - it's all just fantasy. What I can say is that you've just chosen to believe a particular set of fabrications.You could have just as easily chosen a different one such as this from the next paragraph.

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Protestants do not hold there to be any other requirement for salvation, but that faith alone is sufficient.

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