Religion or Science - How do they compare?

Sheesh. Science and religion don't integrate. You'll never find the word 'god' in a scientific paper. You know, non-overlapping magisteria? Sigh.... Science doesn't give a diarrhetic shit what you believe. Science is not belief. Science only cares about what you can demonstrate through test and observation. You can believe that the moon was given birth to by a chicken last Tuesday but if you work in science you'd better put that belief to one side and present your evidence for whatever it is you want to say.As for science informing theology. It's true, it does. It informs theology that its beliefs are wrong. It's done it over and over starting roughly with pointing out that the earth is not the centre of the universe and so important that everything spins around it, that biblical stories like the flood and creation are not true, that the earth is not 6,000 years old and that species are not immutable. And so on. It's provided knowledge about reality, replacing superstition and belief and in continues to do so.And what has religion contributed to science? Antogonism, denial and nothing useful. Nothing that I'm aware of. There's no but. The brain *is* influenced by the environment. Period. It's a natural process. So point one, why do you use the word creation when we're talking about evolution? No scientist uses that word. Are you now going to stop using the word when you're talking about evolution?Point two. Evolution and creation are not synonyms. I'm not interested in talking about religious ideas about creation - you can believe what you like, here we're talking about evolution.You say you accept evolution. The evolutionary process is random and the course of evolution is changed by random events like meteors, ice ages, volcanic erruptions and just time and weather.You claim that god intervenes somehow in this process. If that is true then the process is not random and god is intervening all the time in every little beat of the butterfly's wing. But somehow this has been made to look like the process is indistiguihable from randomness. Any objective view is that it is what it looks like it is, no god necessary. You can't predict randomness - that's kind of the point. If you mean that god created a godzillion planets and a godzillion amount of time in the hope of at some point that some flawed beast like us would pop up for a pin-point in time - the infinite monkey syndrome - then i've got to ask 'for god's sake why?’. I'd prefer the bible stories as a more plausible answer. There is no design in evolution. No goal. No target. Just contingency. If you're going to continue speaking like this you're going to have to admit that you don't accept evolution. You're just another creationist in denial. No shit. Sigh. You have belief, science has conclusions based on evidence. I do not 'believe' anything of the sort. Can you at least try to remember that. I'm not like you, stop imposing your mindset on me. If you can start to do that we might make some progress.Believers like you can't believe that others don't think the same way as they do. Apparently is I don't believe this, then I must believe that. That's not the case. If you can't think like me, please at least accept my assertion that I don't have beliefs about things, I either have knowledge of them or accept my ignorance. I don't insert a belief where I don't have an answer. Science doesn't care what you believe. Particularly when it has actual evidence that says you're wrong. What you believe is not evolution - evolution is not a guided process; it can be shown to be not a guided process. If you say it is, then you need to stop saying that you accept it. Terrific.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

If He will answer your prayer He will grant you salvation.

I wonder if you heard the sermon by Bishop Curry at the Royal Wedding of Harry and Meghan last month. It was a very popular sermon and I'd guess one you would agree with. I only heard maybe a third of it though I did intend to hear more eventually. Basically he seemed to be saying something like "Love is nice, wouldn't it be nice if the world had more love in it."Then I started finding Christians who objected to it as not a truly Christian message, and wrote objections to it which I agree with. One Gavin Ashenden called it "Christianity Lite" and said this: I think it fits your views. What do you think?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Why do you get out of bed? Food? Sex? Entertainment? Feed your ego? Act out your resentment? Keep tabs on the daily destruction of Western Civilization?

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If He will answer your prayer He will grant you salvation.

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Therefore - according to Calvinism - you were wrong. God only answers the prayers of those he has already decided to save.

Because I wake up. Also to pee, go to work, see the family, walk the dog, pay the bills etc etc. Your hostilty, insecurity and depression are showing. Not very Christian. Seek help.

Anyone who has an interest, or a desire, toward salvation, which is what I thought you were saying, is earmarked for salvatio. Those who aren't never show any interest. That could change but until it does they don't seek it and won't find it.

That isn't Calvinism, that's your own preferred belief.Calvinism says that it doesn't matter what you do or believe you're saved or otherwise according to god's predisposition. ie what god decided before you were even born.Btw, I agree it's bonkers.

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Anyone who has an interest, or a desire, toward salvation, which is what I thought you were saying, is earmarked for salvatio.

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I was specifically and explicitly talking about those who were not earmarked for salvation.But I will bet that there are people who show an interest but don’t make it. You seem a pretty obvious candidate.

Well, no, it doesn't say that. What it says is that you can do nothing to earn your salvation, your good deeds don't earn it, and you can't claim any credit for it. "It is by grace ye are saved and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.' There are some signs of salvation, such as beliefs or desires, but those were given by God, not something you take credit for. If you have a saving belief in Christ's death for your sins then you are saved, but God gave you that belief, you can't take credit for it. But having a genuine interest, a desire, is a sign that you are chosen. God does not turn away anyone who has such desires.This idea that someone who truly desires salvation would be turned away is totally wrong. Such a desire is a clue that you are saved. Such feelings can be ephemeral or insincere but i'm talking about the real ones.Those who are predestined will have these desires and signs, those who aren't won't show any interest.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Most of those would show no interest or desire for it at all, and any who seem to wouldn't really have that desire, just maybe a fleeting interest.We're all born blind to the things of God, unable to choose salvation or any other things of God. A genuine saving interest in salvation would be a gifrt of God and anyone who has that gift would be saved because salvation is basically regeneration, having a new nature given by God. There may be fleshly inclinations toward the things of God but the flesh is dead and can't inherit eternal life, you have to be born again and if you are born again and have genuinely spiritual inclinations you are certainly saved..Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No, if anyone actually prays to God in sincerity God will answer. He may even respond to the insincere. King Saul prophesied by God for a short time although he was not a genuine believer.There are degrees and shades of what we are talking about and I'm answering as if it were black and white, and on that level if you have the desires, if you pray, that's a SIGN you are God's. Godly attitudes can be false in many ways but I'm assuming we're talking about true ones. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well this is what you agreed to earlier. Unconditional seems pretty unambigious to me...

Yes that means you cannot do anything to earn salvation, there are no conditions you could meet that would make you a candidate for salvation, ti's entirely God's own unconditional choice completely independent of any qualities in the person, any merit, any goodness etc, He chooses whomever He chooses for reasons entirely His own that we can't know about.But you were saying something different: that "it doesn't matter what you believe or feel" you are predestined or not in any case, but that's not what the above is saying. If someone actually has a belief consistent with salvation then that person is saved, etc. All the above is saying is that there is nothing in our own characters that can earn it, it's NOT saying that even if we have genuine feelings for God we could be cast out by God. Again, Jesus said "Whoever comes unto me I will not cast out." If we have such feelings they are given to us BY God and that is a sign of our salvation.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yup and he's already made the decision. Hence predestination. Yes it is, it's explicit. Predestined. Unconditional. Not based on characteristics or action of individual. Clear as day, no matter who you are, what you've done or what you believe, you're chosen or not. Nothing you can do to change it. You're just adding clauses that are not in the Calvinist contract. That's your own personal spin on it. Well fine but that's not Calvinism as it is writ.