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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Are all or even most of the apologists,Pastors,teachers, and preachers simply wrong? I cannot believe this to be true. It does neatly seperate our two groups a bit more directly, however. Not so much wrong as simply not honest even with themselves. Delusional might be more apt than wrong. (maybe even that is inaccurate and frightened might be the best description. They do not want their base challenged, it's scary and really unpleasant to face that and so simply refuse to consider throwing the dogma away.)
Phat writes: Why is the idea that Jesus rose from the dead and is alive today so troublesome to you personally when you have admitted that you are a cradle creedal Christian? Does not the Nicene Creed suggest that this theology may be true? What does "alive" even mean when talking about something supernatural? When you say stuff like "alive today" are you not imposing material and evidential characteristics to a non-material, non evidential concept?
Phat writes: That's quite an extreme position, and though you have offered reasonable scriptural support for such a position, I hardly think that all of the apologists have failed to do so. You are taking on quite a large group of Christians...not some mere cult of ignorance from a few racist and ignorant backwater churches. ... Which would indicate that they were either lying, ignorant, or both. Again...quite an accusation for such a large percentage of the membership of a religion. As you point out, my position is supported by what is actually written in the Bible stories not by the creations of the apologists. Ignorance is very often wide spread. Yes; most likely both.
Phat writes: Not sure I believe this to be true. Can we trace your source to this information? I suspect that the redactors and editors are themselves the revisionists and that the motive is to discredit the belief. In any case, I dont believe that the Bible was allowed to be changed that much. Then actually read the Bible Phat. It really is that simple. Then read what has been written over the last couple thousand years. Nothing I present is New. Edited by jar, : revise first answer towards frightened more than delusional
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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.Faith says that when the bible says something it is by definition true regardless of reality... No those are your words not mine. Not "regardless of reality," more like "regardless of human opinion." The Bible is accurate about reality, and if fallen minds come up with something that contradicts it we know the contradiction is wrong and seek to reconcile it. It's not "reality" we are dealing with in that case, just false opinion. The Bible guides us to the truth but only if we reject what contradicts it.
You're not objective, you just believe stuff. People believe all kinds of stuff. People can and do believe almost anything - the Jesus stuff is just what you've learned to believe. If you'd been born in India you'd be telling us all that Vishnu was alive and walking amongst us. Somehow you can't take in this point but it must be true, it couldn't be otherwise. You know NOTHING.
You say Jesus is alive, I say great produce him. You then talk nonsense about being here in spirit or can only be seen by those who want to believe etc etc. It's not real, it's all imaginary, you're an unreliable witness. No you are an unreliable hearer.; Ears to hear but cannot hear. You could learn something that is unfamiliar to you that millions of others know, but you insist on knowing only what your spiritual blindness and deafness llimit you to knowing. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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The apologists you so crudely denigrate are honest men who seek to make the Bible understandable to others. You don't seem to know it but what you are doing is apologetics with your absurd objections to "apologists." You are trying to persuade others of YOUR view of the Bible after all, and that is what apologetics does. All you are saying is your apologetics is right and the traditional orthodox apologists are wrong, not only wrong but dishonest and worse.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not quite true Faith as you would admit if you had even a smidgen of honesty. What I do is point to what the Bible actually says and do not try to "interpret" anything.
I have never doubted the apologists believe what they claim but that has nothing to do with whether or not they are being honest.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Not quite true Faith as you would admit if you had even a smidgen of honesty. What I do is point to what the Bible actually says and do not try to "interpret" anything. But this is incredibly nave. EVERYBODY who thinks they understand what they read thinks they are understanding "what it actually says" and are not imposing anything on it. And there is no such thing as reading anything without interpreting it. Of course you're interpreting. You think your reading is the correct one. Big deal. So does everybody. Only you have the gall to call others who read it differently than you do dishonest just because they read it differently. You can argue that your reading is the correct one but not by claiming you are the only one who gets "what it actually says" and doesn't interpret it. We who know that there is only one Flood and only one creation story know we are reading it correctly and that you are wrong. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: You think your reading is the correct one. Big deal. No Faith that is not true. I simply report what is written. I do not interpret it or make up shit to explain away the factual errors, contradictions, variations in accounts, editing and absurdities.
Faith writes: You can argue that your reading is the correct one but not by claiming you are the only one who gets "what it actually says" and doesn't interpret it. We who know that there is only one Flood and only one creation story know we are reading it correctly and that you are wrong.
Yet the fact remains that there is more than one creation story in the Bible and more than one flood story. Those are simply facts Faith and cannot be disputed by any honest person. Edited by jar, : there is an "e" in one
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Nothing in there appears to provide any arguments Luke did not draw on writings. I'll note that quoting authors that throw around "leftist" the same way you do as if that were some kind of argument really are not proving anything except that they are content with ad hominem. Leftist is not an ad hominem, it is a worldview, and it surprised me that he used it. But of course you pick on that word when I had hardly noticed it, and ignore the point which is his good description of the attitude of the "scholars."
" He certainly HAD read many eyewitness accounts. "
So writings, then. Yeah, writings which he refers to in his opening statement, which he says inspired him to write his own account. Sheesh. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes you do interpret, there is no way to avoid it, and there is only one creation account and one Flood story.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
PaulK writes: But you aren’t. It’s all,a fantasy. You only believe the insane idea of the Roman Catholic Church merging with Islam in the near future because you unthinkingly hate both. Islam itself becoming a unified force in the near term is unlikely, to say the least. And how you could imagine that Islam and the RC Church could possibly join together without implausibly large doctrinal shifts on at least one side is beyond me. I dunno. You probably just don't notice the signs, such as this one "Italian bishop says he’s ready to turn all the churches into mosques to aid the cause of mass Muslim migration" As for doctrine, I don't know about Islam but doctrine is no obstacle to this Pope at least. I'm sure he can find a way to blend with Islam if that's his desire. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I admit to not being a gullible idiot. Show me a site where I can actually find what the Bishop said in context and we’ll see. But I’m hardly going to trust propaganda sites.
quote: Your ignorance is truly amazing. Do you really think,that the Pope could abandon the Divinity of Christ just like that ?
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Leftist is not an ad hominem, it is a worldview, and it surprised me that he used it. What is being done here is simply labeling a view leftist as if that is all that is needed to discredit it. That is the essence of what an ad hominem argument is. It is not an insult, but an attempt to discredit by applying a label in place of addressing a position on the merits. And in fact, there is absolutely no attempt to even demonstrate that the criticised viewpoint is "left". It is a viewpoint that differs from that of the author who spits out the label before dismissing it entirely. No points for that. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: No those are your words not mine. Not "regardless of reality," more like "regardless of human opinion." The Bible is accurate about reality, and if fallen minds come up with something that contradicts it we know the contradiction is wrong and seek to reconcile it. It's not "reality" we are dealing with in that case, just false opinion. The Bible guides us to the truth but only if we reject what contradicts it. Right. So Adam was made from dust, Eve from his rib, snakes talk, men were giants, people lived for hundreds of years, Noah built an impossible ship and filled it with animals from all over the world, the world and everything was drowned by God and the Earth and universe is 6,000 years old. To name but a few of story telling myths in the bible that you believe to be literally true. You believe that everything written in the bible is literally true and if we find evidence in reality that it is not, then we are wrong. Do you not?
You know NOTHING. I know you're batshit crazy.
No you are an unreliable hearer.; Ears to hear but cannot hear. My eyes and ears are working fine; lets see what you've got.
You could learn something that is unfamiliar to you that millions of others know, but you insist on knowing only what your spiritual blindness and deafness llimit you to knowing. You forget that I was born a Christian and know everything you think you know. I then grew up and found out that it's simply a group delusion that is gradually evaporating.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: I really don't know if deep down I doubt or not. I DO know that I question. If I ever stopped praying, it would confirm that I had doubts. All this debate and argument is utterly pointless, why do you do it? Is it just so that you can feel that you're right to believe what you believe? Or is there a nagging doubt?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No those are your words not mine. Not "regardless of reality," more like "regardless of human opinion." The Bible is accurate about reality, and if fallen minds come up with something that contradicts it we know the contradiction is wrong and seek to reconcile it. It's not "reality" we are dealing with in that case, just false opinion. The Bible guides us to the truth but only if we reject what contradicts it. Right. So Adam was made from dust, Eve from his rib, snakes talk, men were giants, people lived for hundreds of years, Noah built an impossible ship and filled it with animals from all over the world, the world and everything was drowned by God and the Earth and universe is 6,000 years old. To name but a few of story telling myths in the bible that you believe to be literally true. You believe that everything written in the bible is literally true and if we find evidence in reality that it is not, then we are wrong. Do you not? That was my point, your "evidence" is an illusion."
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
A lot of prophecy is God speaking of blessings or disasters that he is going to send. Only when it is something that is definitely going to happen, which isn't the case with the if-then example you gave.
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