Christianity and the End Times

Sadly, he never got round to it. Must have something better to do.

In a certain sense it's more like God IS the rules than that He "makes" them. The nature of the universe, or the Creation, is such that things can't be any other way than they are, because God can't be any other way than He is. Sin or disobedience of God in such a universe would be a tragic tearing of the fabric of the Creation itself, hence death as the consequence and death as the necessary propitiation.Well I'm keeping the sacrifices of Cain and Abel, which scripture do you claim I ignore? And is there a heathen nation you know of that didn't have sacrifice as part of its religion?

That they have gone into the presence of God, or into God's dimension. Jesus after resurrection would appear and disappear moving between God's dimension and our own.

OK but then the scripture would have described it in those terms. Instead it says He disappeared into a cloud. While He certainly was taken to the presence of God, where He sits at the right hand of the Father, from the point of view of the disciples watching Him He ascended into a cloud. We're talking about what they SAW. They couldn't see Him in the presence of God but they saw Him go into a cloud. The scripture doesn't say He rose skyward and then -poof- just disappeared, it says He went into a cloud. That is also how the Rapture is described. And the angels told them that's how they'd see Him coming again too. There is really no way the scripture would read as it does if it meant what you are saying. There are other places where Jesus just disappears rather than going into a cloud, there's no reason to put a cloud there if it wasn't there.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No fall. Therefore, Jesus didn't have to die. That's a new one on me. Chapter and verse?

I was raised Catholic.
Went to Catholic school and highschool and to church every weekend.Also, friends who lived down the street from me went to a local Southern Baptist church, and their Dad was the Pastor.
I went to their church many times as well while growing up.In highschool, I didn't miss a weekend at either church (my folks liked the Saturday-night mass at the Catholic church... which left me free Sunday morning for the Southern Baptist church).I wasn't an atheist until my college-ish years, I think. Possibly a bit after that.I am all for the good people and good parts that religions can provide - like the communities they build. Church communities can be full of the nicest and kindest of people. Just like non-church communities.
I just don't see the point of any of the extra, unnecessary stuffs.And I especially don't see the point of End Times speculation based on texts that have proven themselves unreliable and vague for various other prophecies.I get torn in these conversations.On one side - I'm very much into letting people do whatever they think is best for themselves - whether that's preparing for End Times or whatever.On the other side - seeing some people get so worked up and invested in something that's just... not real... makes me want to try and help them. Sort of how you want to try and help people turn towards God before the rapture so they won't get hurt.And then there's the level of this being a 'public forum' - which means even though posts are replied-to-someone-specifically, their message isn't always intended for that specific person alone. Which adds a layer of confusion.There's a circular loop in there somewhere that blocks the potential for mutual understanding. And I don't see how to straighten it out. I don't even see where it specifically exists.
Maybe it's one of those things that can't be straightened out.
But it's not good to give up trying completely.

That diminishes God to a spirit inhabiting rocks and trees, with no power over anything. There's the part where God said there was no fall, for example. I don't understand why you're holding up heathen religions as an example of something we should follow.

Just occurred to me that the reason Jesus visibly disappeared into a cloud was to set the stage for His return, when "every eye will see Him..." as the angel made a point of saying. Those who see Him will include believers and unbelievers' and it makes a helpful visual aid to bring Him to earth in a visible cloud. If he just poofed into visibility they'd miss it, or be startled into confusion, or at least it wouldn't be a fittingly dramatic entrance, but they aren't going to miss clouds and especially clouds as the vehicle for the glorious returning Christ with His millions of angels and presumably all the raptured believers as well.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You're a very thoughtful guy, Stile, thanks for your report.

It's hard to answer such nonsense, the God who made the entire universe reduced to a created spirit. I'm sure you've said somewhere how God supposedly said there was no Fall but I find it hard to keep that sort of weirdness in my head for long.And of course I'm not holding up heathen religions for us to follow them, obviously, obviously, I'm using them as evidence that sacrifice was understood by all humanity since Eden as necessary for the propitiation of sin, and they would all have received the story from their ancestors about the promise of a Savior too. But since the world was now ruled by Satan and his hordes they had a lot of lying voices in their ears to distort things as well. If only science recognized the real truth about all these things....

Paulk,

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If you have big picture arguments you are free to make them, but if you try to tell me that Matthew 24:41-42 refers to events before the Tribulation without any reasonable arguments at all - as you,be been doing - it is not going to work and it is hardly my fault.

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It is not that hard to see pre- great tribulation is the time of Matthew 24:41,42 1.) Jesus compares the time of watching in verses 41,42 to the days BEFORE the flood (v.38) . Since the great tribulation, like the days of Noah's flood, are also days of divine judgment "In those days before the flood" correspond to those days before the days of judgment during the great tribulation.It fits better than to imagine He was speaking of something AFTER the judgment. 2.) In verse 38 He compares the time to UNTIL the day in which Noah entered into the ark . Since entering into the ark strongly implies salvation from the judgment of the flood, being taken BEFORE judgment falls on the world is the most logical comparison.If He meant AFTER the flood He could have plainly said so. 3.) The words "AT THAT TIME ... two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left" pertains to a time equivalent to BEFORE the judgment of the flood of Noah. Correspondingly BEFORE the judgments of the great tribulation. 4.) The man TAKEN very logically compares to the rescue BEFORE the flood of those who entered into the ark. It is less likely to interpret that the one is TAKEN away somewhere to be judged by God.Though some Bible students argue that the POSITIVE situation is to be LEFT and the NEGATIVE situation is to be TAKEN, the other way around I think is more logical and consistent with verse 44 to be READY.Would Jesus mean to be watching and ready to be LEFT ? I don't think so. 5.) Somehow being READY to be IGNORED and LEFT makes less sense than being READY to be PAID attention to and TAKEN.Since the great tribulation is to come upon the world, being taken FROM the world is more logically removal from the place under judgment rather than transporting TO a place of judgment. 6.) The Son of Man is mightily EXPECTED by the believers towards the conclusion of the time of great tribulation more so than BEFORE. His coming BEFORE would have more of an element of SURPRISE with which He speaks.IE. Things are going along seemingly rather normally. 7.) The dire warning for the disciples NOT to presume that He is delaying His arrival makes more sense to a pre-tribulation time. All that Paul tells the Thessalonians about the appearing of Christ suggests signs that indicate His coming is NEAR. Therefore the warnings of Matthew 24:48-50 more logically suite a time in which nothing particular signals that He is near. 8.) The punishment elaborated towards the servant that does NOT watch to be ready seems more pertaining to realizing that one has been left to share his lot with unbelievers. Of course unbelievers will not be raptured. So for the unwatchful Christian to be left and not taken would give rise to the feeling of being cut asunder and deemed the SAME as hypocrites and unbelievers. If I was a Christian living in sloppiness, looseness, perhaps in fornication, uncleaness, or drunken stupor of mistreating my fellow believers, and some brethren were taken and I was LEFT, I would feet cut asunder from my Lord albeit temporarily.It also would serve to give rise to repentance and readiness for the great tribulation to soon follow such a pre-tribulation selective rapture.While these reasons may not be 100% water tight, I'd be welcomed to see your contrasting logic that the warnings of Matthew 24:41,42 make more sense to you as pertaining to after the predicted great tribulation.Because verses 41,42 fall on the side of the my dividing line of verse 31, Jesus is speaking to the disciples more according to their status as constituents of the church than Jewish members of Israel.I admit that it was tempting to view these warnings as post-tribulation because of verse 31. However I have maintained that beginning with verse 32 the more relevant status of the disciples there is as members of the Christian church.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Oh well, evidence is not persuasion.

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More to the point providing contrary evidence is liable to persuade others that you are wrong.

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Everybody probably arrives at a "preferred interpretation".
Why shouldn't I "prefer" a more convincing interpretation?

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That’s your explanation of why your preferred interpretation is better you find it more convincing but can’t offer anything actually convincing ?

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Co-reigning with Christ mattered to Christ.
So I believe it matters.

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Do you have some inability to follow a discussion ? Obviously what I mean is that it does not help your argument.

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One Person is Christ Who is to reign - (Revelation 19:15)
The OTHER persons [plural] are those who overcome (Revelation 2:26,27)
The Manchild is consistent with the evidence because " THEY overcame him ..."

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As I have already pointed out there is no reason to think that they overcame him refers to the manchild.

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In Acts 1:11 the disciples are assured that AS He ascended, similarly He will descend again someday.

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And another non-sequitur.

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One reason that I prefer to interpret the Manchild consists of those saints that have DIED is because the text says that they loved not their soul-life, even unto DEATH.

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And, I repeat there is no reason to think that text refers to the manchild.

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I don't promise to convince you. Why would I guarantee your persuasion?

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I didn’t ask for that. Instead I pointed out that your arguments were incredibly weak and that is hardly my fault. It is not that I am failing to see evidence or that you see a bigger picture. It is just that your entire case rests on dubious interpretations which should not persuade anyone at all.

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I have no problem understanding the warnings of Matthew 24:41-42
as they are consistent perfectly with the parables about His coming and expecting His servants to be on their guard.

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Then why try to pretend that they are about some secret pre-tribulation Rapture when Matthew 24:36 tells us that it will follow the signs listed in Matthew 24:6-31 (including the Tribulation) and
Matthew 24:37 tells us that the immediately following verses take place with the Second Coming ? And that is confirmed by verse 42, verse 43 and verse 44.

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This kind of warning is more likely about unsuspecting moment rather than a tumultous and sensational annoucement. The following verse also suggests SUPRISE in arrival rather than LOUD ANNOUCEMENT of arrival.

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Indeed, but there is no announcement, only signs - and signs that may only be recognised as such by those familiar with the warning. And it is explicitly stated that these events will follow the signs. Moreover the signs are precisely what the disciples are told to watch for. What good are they as signs if they arrive too late to be of any use ?

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If you have a better way to live for Christ's coming again, you follow that.

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I think I would avoid the displays of arrogance and dishonesty for one.

You said that God has no power to change the nature of the universe.

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Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....

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Becoming like God can not be a fall. The heathen religions got it wrong on a whole lot of counts (according to you, not according to me). Why on earth would you use them as an example at all? Why would you think they got that one thing right?

This again is trying to understand what is written with a 21st century understanding of what was being written. Paul would have no idea that this letter would still be being read 2000 years later.This letter was written to a specific group of new Christians, both Jewish and gentile. He wrote it in language that they would understand. Paul would use idioms and metaphors that conveyed deep truths that are minimized by the way you understand the texts.

You're just making shit up again Faith, writing your own version of the Bible. There is absolutely nothing in Genesis 2&3 to support that utter nonsense and it's just more evidence of the Apologist tactic of making shit up to make the Bible reflect the dogma of their Cult and fantasy instead of reality.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin