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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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I don’t really watch videos or listen to podcasts.
I do read some blogs. This one is quite interesting.
Is That in the Bible But I do see a lot of misunderstanding of what scripture really says here and I think it is worth talking about. (The way the two nativity stories get mashed together is an obvious example since it appears so often.) But I admit I have rarely seen anything as blatant as Jaywill’s misreading of Matthew 24.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But meaning is subjective, is it not?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Yes and no. At the base level meaning is intersubjective, meaning that it is a shared subjectivity - generally agreed. Given a sufficiently clear statement anyone fluent in the language should understand it the same way. It is quite clear in this sense that Matthew 24:36-44 deals with events at the time of the Second Coming - after the Tribulation Jaywill claims that it is about a Secret Rapture before the Tribulation but that is not a viable reading. There is simply no doubt about that. There is certainly more subjectivity in interpreting the Revelation - it is unclear, and uses symbolism (likely symbolism which modern readers are liable to misunderstand). But that is why I insist that Jaywill makes a case for his interpretation more than insisting on a contrary one there.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
As I already mentioned in Message 875, that's a pretty weak "prophecy". There is not the slightest indication that Eve's seed will win the battle with the snakes. It's just an ongoing enmity. If it was a prophecy of a "saviour", it would be a failed saviour. More likely it's just another lame attempt to read Jesus into the Old Testament. Please don't get silly on me and make a big deal out of the fact that this was literally said to the serpent rather than to Adam and Eve. They got the message, and so did all their descendants, up to a point anyway, since it was only the righteous who held on to it and passed it on intact.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
you used to always emphasize the message over the messenger. Perhaps the battle is being waged this very moment and the message is that we are the soldiers.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Mistaken reply.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I know you always know way better than two thousand years of Christian theology, but nevertheless I will point out that that is regarded by ALL Christianity as the first prophecy of the Savior promised by God from Eden.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Then where does the "saviour" come in? As I have pointed out twice now to Faith, there is no winner in that battle. Perhaps the battle is being waged this very moment and the message is that we are the soldiers. The snake in Genesis 3 is a literary device to expose Eve's thoughts (i.e. the primeval thoughts of all humans). The enmity between snakes and humans is a biological turf war. Reading more into it than that just convolutes your theology to the point where it becomes a joke.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
No it isn't. I, for one, had never heard it. I will point out that that is regarded by ALL Christianity as the first prophecy of the Savior promised by God from Eden. It is, after all, ridiculous. For the third time, nobody wins that battle. It's just an ongoing enmity with no "saviour" to save anybody. Reading Jesus into it is an outright fabrication - and one that makes no sense.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: In the context of the Adam and Eve story it’s pretty clear that it’s just meant to explain why humans (mostly) don’t get on with snakes. You have to read quite a lot into it to assume it is anything more.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Since you never heard of it allow me to show you that Genesis 3:15 is indeed considered to be the first prophecy of the Savior. Here's a GOOGLE PAGE on the subject. Just glance through the entries and you'll see how many say what I'm saying.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Do you read my posts at all before replying? I told you, I did Google it. And AIG was the first hit on my results too. That's a nail in the coffin. I wouldn't trust those guys as far as I could throw the Garden of Eden. Here's a GOOGLE PAGE on the subject. Just glance through the entries and you'll see how many say what I'm saying. And I have explained why the "prophecy" makes no sense. There is no saviour in Genesis 3. The enmity goes on and on and on forever. It just doesn't fit the idea of Jesus at all. Deal with that instead of just repeating, "I do, I do, I do believe...."And our geese will blot out the sun.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The fact that there are lots of folk who buy the Cult Dogma does not change it from just being dogma and NOT what is actually written in the Bible.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I see that I'd overlooked this earlier post in which you discussed the prophecy of Genesis 3:15
What Genesis 3 says is that Eve's seed will bruise tbe serpent's head and the serpent will bruise the heel of Eve's seed. AiG - and presumably you by proxy - stretches that to Eve's seed being Jesus. It seems odd that Jesus would be called Eve's seed instead of Adam's or, even better, God's. But in any case it doesn't make any sense because it's depicted as a mutual bruise-to-bruise animosity - i.e. there is no winner - i.e. no saviour. Yes, AIG is at the top of the Google page I linked too, but there are plenty of others on that page to make my point. This prophecy is considered to be a pretty condensed presentation of a lot of theology in one place. It prophesies that it is the woman whose seed will war with the serpent, because He was the seed of Mary and not of Joseph, since His Father was God. And this is a sort of reversal of Eve's sin at the same time. Bruising the heel of a man isn't going to do much damage as compared to bruising the head of a snake. And by bruising his head Jesus defeated him so that he could never regain the power he won in Eden when he seduced Eve into eating the forbidden fruit. He continues to seduce and torment humanity but he's lost the war which won't be fully realized until the end of the Millennium which follows on Jesus' Second Coming. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes, I missed where you said that, see post immediately above.
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