Christianity and the End Times

quote:

---

And yet another sign of your inability to read For comprehension.
I already answered that question in the post you replied to, but I’ll repeat it.

---

Not impressed with bluster.So I take your answer below to be what I am after.

quote:

---

Obviously it is the brethren first mentioned in verse 10. Really, simple literacy is enough to see that.

---

The "brethren" indicated are the persecuted saints as "the rest of her seed" mentioned in verses 17. They don't appear to be in any position to REJOICE under such severe opposition. If this is the BRETHREN you refer to, they are more under the authority of the Devil still, suffering from his persecution and warring.Your answer is pretty poor. It much LESS persuasive then the THEY symbolized as a Manchild, who overcame Satan (rather than be under his CONTINUED attack)The Woman is harrassed. The brethren of the Manchild brought forth from the Woman have overcome. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

But Phat, in Genesis 2&3 it is the Serpent that tells the truth and the God who lies.And remember the author of John is not the author of Genesis 2&3 and is in fact revising the Jesus mythos.

It's one thing to make up a lesson based on something the Bible says - and it's another thing to pretend that that's what the authors meant. You might remember the Jewish method of exegesis that our member Purpledawn used to talk about.

So Jesus is lying? Sez you. You are taking plain text as truth in one instance and rejecting it in another. Good question. I would have to think about it.Edited by Phat, : spelling

revising mythos is always allowed within reason and context. I could ask 100 people who Jesus was or is and would get many differing answers.I could ask them if Christianity is based on what we do or what we believe or both and get votes for all three possibilities.We are responsible for what we believe and for what we do.

quote:

---

Not impressed with bluster.

---

But it is not bluster. The answer was clearly given in a short post and you managed to miss it.

quote:

---

The "brethren" indicated are the persecuted saints as "the rest of her seed" mentioned in verses 17. They don't appear to be in any position to REJOICE under such severe opposition.

---

The ones who were to rejoice were the heavens and all who dwell in them (verse 12). Obviously saints being persecuted on Earth don’t qualify.And if - as you now claim - the brethren of verses 10-11 are being persecuted on Earth in verse 17 they certainly cannot have been Raptured as you originally claimed. They can’t even be dead as you also claimed.

quote:

---

You answer is pretty poor. It much LESS persuasive then the THEY symbolized as a Manchild, who overcame Satan (rather than be under his CONTINUED attack)

---

The actual text is less persuasive than something someone made up? Maybe to you.

Why do you always go there? John might have been mistaken about what Jesus said, or he might have made up the whole story. There are a lot of possibilities. The point is that there are discrepancies in the story. How so?

But the issue Phat is what the Bible actually says.What folk believe is one thing but when it comes to what the Bible actually says the apologists play fast and loose with honesty, reality and facts.

quote:

---

The ones who were to rejoice were the heavens and all who dwell in them (verse 12). Obviously saints being persecuted on Earth don’t qualify.

---

The is the ones in heaven were just raptured to Heaven and to God's throne - the Manchild. The contrast is between THEIR victory and the REST OF HER SEED of the Woman's prolonged persecution.You also miss the connection between this group going UP and the angels (who serve them) lead by Michael driving DOWN finally, the Devil.How did the rejoicing human dwellers GET up to heaven ?Did they ascend to heaven BEFORE the Lord Jesus as the Woman's son ascended up to heaven ?What evidence do you have that before Jesus Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, there were human heaven dwellers ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

The is the ones in heaven were just raptured to Heaven and to God's throne - the Manchild.

---

And according to you that is the saints in verses 11-12 - the saints you said were dead and now say are still alive on Earth and being persecuted in verse 17.That was your evidence that the manchild was more than a single person. Funny how you suddenly change your mind on the issue. And you don’t even have a sensible reason. You can’t change the fact that the brethren of verse 10 are those who overcame in verse 11 by assuming that they are also those who are persecuted in verse 17.

quote:

---

What evidence do you have that before Jesus Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, there were human heaven dwellers ?

---

I made no claim about whether the dwellers in Heaven were human or not.

Folks what we have in Revelation 12 is Satan doing his accusing work against the saints of God. He has done this accusing from the days of Job (when Satan accused Job before God) and Zechariah where the Slanderer (accused the high priest Joshua before the Angel of Jehovah).In the oldest book of the Bible we see Satan is still free to appear in heaven somehow to accuse God's saints before God. He also accuses God before the saints on earth.He ever stands ready to prevent the STRONGER component of the people of God from coming forth - beginning with Jesus the Son of Man the Son of God down to all of the saints of Christ, and also the Old Testament saints of course.Now since the saints are not perfect, there is often some GROUND for accusation. The saints do have failures.Satan accuses false failures. But he accuses also failures which have some ground. The reason for exalted rejoicing is the in spite of Satan's accusation day and night a REMNANT are so pleasing to God that God raptures them up to Himself. In a sense they are too good for the world.Their following Christ at the cost of even their lives renders them victorious. For Satan's ground of attack always lies in man's self love and preservation of his fallen soul-life.The majority of God's people fall below the standard of overcoming. But in a minority follow THE Victor Jesus (who overcame the world) to overcome THROUGH His indwelling and grace empowering them.What a reason for God's people to rejoice. SOME are victorious and are caught up in rapture as a strategic army - a STRONGER component of the surrounding WEAKER body of God's saints.When this group is raptured, no one knows. But after the rapture of such an entity and any corresponding LIVING saints of this type, there will be three and one half years to the end of the age.Those believers alive and LEFT on earth, being caught off guard, will then pass through the terrific heat of the great tribulation of three and one half years. The pre-tribulation secretive rapture is like a Normandy invasion of a remnant of victorious saints of God. It strategic defeat to Satan causes him to be further limited and to be filled with desperate RAGE against man in general and against God's saints on earth in particular.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I’m still waiting for you to provide real evidence of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew 24 didn’t mention it at all - as anyone who manages to read it can see.And now you are denying your own (admittedly worthless) argument that the manchild represented the dead overcomers of Revelation 12:11 by claiming that those people are alive and being persecuted in verse 17.

quote:

---

And according to you that is the saints in verses 11-12 - the saints you said were dead and now say are still alive on Earth and being persecuted in verse 17.

---

I don't think you yourself understand what you are writing.A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.A PORTION - a STRONGER component is resurrected and caught up to heaven.
The LARGER PORTION - a WEAKER component remain on earth to be sorely persecuted.Don't obfuscate.The ACCUSER of our brothers has been cast DOWN at the catalyst of the overcomers being caught UP. Their GOING UP is the catalyst for Satan coming DOWN (not of his own will but by the force of spiritual WARFARE).The PRINCIPLE of a remnant of God's people reigning and overcoming in spiritual warfare is seen many times in the Bible.

quote:

---

That was your evidence that the manchild was more than a single person. Funny how you suddenly change your mind on the issue.

---

The evidence that the Manchild is a corporate person was given that what the Manchild is promised to do is what OVERCOMERS are promised.And that was shown in Revelation 2:26 and other places which you want to ignore. You have many promises in the Bible that that those who overcome via God's salvation will represent His authority.Throughout the ages, and from every age, SOME have died meeting this criteria.They ALL TOGETHER, will be resurrected and raptured as a collective Manchild.I'm consistent. You're the one waffling around for a better interpretation.

quote:

---

And you don’t even have a sensible reason.

---

Plenty of sensible reason has been given.

quote:

---

You can’t change the fact that the brethren of verse 10 are those who overcame in verse 11 by assuming that they are also those who are persecuted in verse 17.

---

I didn't write anything of that kind.To miss early rapture is to be in DEFEAT.
To obtain early rapture is to be in OVERCOMING.The OVERCOMING go up to heaven.
The DEFEATED go up latter after learning some great tribulation lessons.
These are lessons which they SHOULD have learned in the daily life of no particular world-wide calamity.You are attempting to confuse the ones TAKEN with the ones LEFT and blame it on me somehow (???)

quote:

---

I made no claim about whether the dwellers in Heaven were human or not.

---

Oh, you made no claim and took no position on that.
No position is usually the easier position to defend.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Paulk is getting kind of wild now.
He says -

quote:

---

And now you are denying your own (admittedly worthless) argument that the manchild represented the dead overcomers of Revelation 12:11 by claiming that those people are alive and being persecuted in verse 17.

---

The Manchild consists of those who did not love their soul-life EVEN UNTO DEATH. That strongly suggests that they DIED. Delivered and caught up to the throne of God means RESURRECTION and RAPTURE. During their lives on earth they became worthy of the reward. For instance they kept the word of His endurance. And Christ promises that even if some should not physcally be alive when He comes, they still would be given authority to co-shepherd the nations with a strong ruling power (an iron rod) - (See Revelation 2:26) They DIED. But shortly before the end of the age, and BEFORE the great tribulation, they are resurrected and raptured.The REST of the LIVING saints who are of ONE mystical body with these overcomers will be left, missing the early rapture, and passing through the great tribulation to LEARN to overcome.They are rapture or resurrected and raptured AFTERWARDS.
This agrees in principle with visions of FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST taken at different times - separated by the major events of the great tribulation.Now do not misunderstand me here.
The MANCHILD are the saints raptured pre-tribulation who physically died before that time.
The FIRSTFRUITS are the living saints who are alive on earth during that time.BOTH MANCHILD and FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST and UNIVERSAL BRIGHT WOMAN are ONE mystical Body of Christ. In life they are all ONE Body.Revelation shows various timings of the destinies of these varied components of the ONE Body of all God's redeemed people.I'm not confused. PaulK want to portray me as being confused.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I don't think you yourself understand what you are writing.

---

Oh, I do.

quote:

---

A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.

---

So first you claim that the overcomers in verse 10-11 were Raptured. Then you claimed that they were left on Earth. Now you claim that some of them were and some weren’t.And you say that I don’t understand what I am saying ?

quote:

---

The evidence that the Manchild is a corporate person was given that what the Manchild is promised to do is what OVERCOMERS are promised

---

However that also appears in Revelation 19 applied to a figure which you take - and I agree - to be Jesus alone.And since that is the limit of your case - it really isn’t that great.

quote:

---

Plenty of sensible reason has been given.

---

Please tell me the sensible reason for sabotaging your own argument by assuming that verses which seem to be about different people are about the same people.

quote:

---

I didn't write anything of that kind.

---

But you did. In Message 946 you tried to argue that verse 17 referred to them and that

quote:

---

Oh, you made no claim and took no position on that.
No position is usually the easier position to defend.

---

At least I don’t resort to the dishonest tactic of demanding that my opponents support claims that they never made. It’s a cheap trick.