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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: Not impressed with bluster. So I take your answer below to be what I am after.
quote: The "brethren" indicated are the persecuted saints as "the rest of her seed" mentioned in verses 17. They don't appear to be in any position to REJOICE under such severe opposition.
And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (v.17) If this is the BRETHREN you refer to, they are more under the authority of the Devil still, suffering from his persecution and warring. Your answer is pretty poor. It much LESS persuasive then the THEY symbolized as a Manchild, who overcame Satan (rather than be under his CONTINUED attack) The Woman is harrassed. The brethren of the Manchild brought forth from the Woman have overcome. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But Phat, in Genesis 2&3 it is the Serpent that tells the truth and the God who lies.
And remember the author of John is not the author of Genesis 2&3 and is in fact revising the Jesus mythos.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
It's one thing to make up a lesson based on something the Bible says - and it's another thing to pretend that that's what the authors meant. You might remember the Jewish method of exegesis that our member Purpledawn used to talk about. Here's a commentary on the two seeds in this verse by the famous 18th century evangelist George Whitefield:And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
1. "Our father, which art the devil" was a murderer from the beginning? That's undocumented. So Jesus is lying?
2. He has no truth in him? That would suggest that our father, who art the devil, is not the snake, because the snake told the truth. Sez you. You are taking plain text as truth in one instance and rejecting it in another.
3. And what has murder got to do with truth anyway? Good question. I would have to think about it. Edited by Phat, : spellingChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
revising mythos is always allowed within reason and context. I could ask 100 people who Jesus was or is and would get many differing answers.
I could ask them if Christianity is based on what we do or what we believe or both and get votes for all three possibilities. We are responsible for what we believe and for what we do.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: But it is not bluster. The answer was clearly given in a short post and you managed to miss it.
quote: The ones who were to rejoice were the heavens and all who dwell in them (verse 12). Obviously saints being persecuted on Earth don’t qualify. And if - as you now claim - the brethren of verses 10-11 are being persecuted on Earth in verse 17 they certainly cannot have been Raptured as you originally claimed. They can’t even be dead as you also claimed.
quote: The actual text is less persuasive than something someone made up? Maybe to you.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why do you always go there? John might have been mistaken about what Jesus said, or he might have made up the whole story. There are a lot of possibilities. The point is that there are discrepancies in the story.
So Jesus is lying? Phat writes:
How so? You are taking plain text as truth in one instance and rejecting it in another.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But the issue Phat is what the Bible actually says.
What folk believe is one thing but when it comes to what the Bible actually says the apologists play fast and loose with honesty, reality and facts.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: The is the ones in heaven were just raptured to Heaven and to God's throne - the Manchild.
And she brought forth a son, a manchild, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her son was caught up unto God and to His throne. (v.5) The contrast is between THEIR victory and the REST OF HER SEED of the Woman's prolonged persecution. You also miss the connection between this group going UP and the angels (who serve them) lead by Michael driving DOWN finally, the Devil. How did the rejoicing human dwellers GET up to heaven ? Did they ascend to heaven BEFORE the Lord Jesus as the Woman's son ascended up to heaven ? What evidence do you have that before Jesus Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, there were human heaven dwellers ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: And according to you that is the saints in verses 11-12 - the saints you said were dead and now say are still alive on Earth and being persecuted in verse 17. That was your evidence that the manchild was more than a single person. Funny how you suddenly change your mind on the issue. And you don’t even have a sensible reason. You can’t change the fact that the brethren of verse 10 are those who overcame in verse 11 by assuming that they are also those who are persecuted in verse 17.
quote: I made no claim about whether the dwellers in Heaven were human or not.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Folks what we have in Revelation 12 is Satan doing his accusing work against the saints of God. He has done this accusing from the days of Job (when Satan accused Job before God) and Zechariah where the Slanderer (accused the high priest Joshua before the Angel of Jehovah).
In the oldest book of the Bible we see Satan is still free to appear in heaven somehow to accuse God's saints before God. He also accuses God before the saints on earth. He ever stands ready to prevent the STRONGER component of the people of God from coming forth - beginning with Jesus the Son of Man the Son of God down to all of the saints of Christ, and also the Old Testament saints of course. Now since the saints are not perfect, there is often some GROUND for accusation. The saints do have failures. Satan accuses false failures. But he accuses also failures which have some ground. The reason for exalted rejoicing is the in spite of Satan's accusation day and night a REMNANT are so pleasing to God that God raptures them up to Himself. In a sense they are too good for the world. Their following Christ at the cost of even their lives renders them victorious. For Satan's ground of attack always lies in man's self love and preservation of his fallen soul-life. The majority of God's people fall below the standard of overcoming. But in a minority follow THE Victor Jesus (who overcame the world) to overcome THROUGH His indwelling and grace empowering them. What a reason for God's people to rejoice. SOME are victorious and are caught up in rapture as a strategic army - a STRONGER component of the surrounding WEAKER body of God's saints. When this group is raptured, no one knows. But after the rapture of such an entity and any corresponding LIVING saints of this type, there will be three and one half years to the end of the age. Those believers alive and LEFT on earth, being caught off guard, will then pass through the terrific heat of the great tribulation of three and one half years.
Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them, Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (12:11,12) The pre-tribulation secretive rapture is like a Normandy invasion of a remnant of victorious saints of God. It strategic defeat to Satan causes him to be further limited and to be filled with desperate RAGE against man in general and against God's saints on earth in particular. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I’m still waiting for you to provide real evidence of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew 24 didn’t mention it at all - as anyone who manages to read it can see.
And now you are denying your own (admittedly worthless) argument that the manchild represented the dead overcomers of Revelation 12:11 by claiming that those people are alive and being persecuted in verse 17.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: I don't think you yourself understand what you are writing. A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth. A PORTION - a STRONGER component is resurrected and caught up to heaven.The LARGER PORTION - a WEAKER component remain on earth to be sorely persecuted. Don't obfuscate. The ACCUSER of our brothers has been cast DOWN at the catalyst of the overcomers being caught UP. Their GOING UP is the catalyst for Satan coming DOWN (not of his own will but by the force of spiritual WARFARE). The PRINCIPLE of a remnant of God's people reigning and overcoming in spiritual warfare is seen many times in the Bible.
quote: The evidence that the Manchild is a corporate person was given that what the Manchild is promised to do is what OVERCOMERS are promised. And that was shown in Revelation 2:26 and other places which you want to ignore.
And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, ... (2:26a) You have many promises in the Bible that that those who overcome via God's salvation will represent His authority. Throughout the ages, and from every age, SOME have died meeting this criteria. They ALL TOGETHER, will be resurrected and raptured as a collective Manchild. I'm consistent. You're the one waffling around for a better interpretation.
quote: Plenty of sensible reason has been given.
quote: I didn't write anything of that kind. To miss early rapture is to be in DEFEAT.To obtain early rapture is to be in OVERCOMING. The OVERCOMING go up to heaven.The DEFEATED go up latter after learning some great tribulation lessons. These are lessons which they SHOULD have learned in the daily life of no particular world-wide calamity. You are attempting to confuse the ones TAKEN with the ones LEFT and blame it on me somehow (???)
quote: Oh, you made no claim and took no position on that.No position is usually the easier position to defend. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Paulk is getting kind of wild now.
He says - quote: The Manchild consists of those who did not love their soul-life EVEN UNTO DEATH. That strongly suggests that they DIED. Delivered and caught up to the throne of God means RESURRECTION and RAPTURE.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death (v.11) During their lives on earth they became worthy of the reward. For instance they kept the word of His endurance. And Christ promises that even if some should not physcally be alive when He comes, they still would be given authority to co-shepherd the nations with a strong ruling power (an iron rod) - (See Revelation 2:26) They DIED. But shortly before the end of the age, and BEFORE the great tribulation, they are resurrected and raptured. The REST of the LIVING saints who are of ONE mystical body with these overcomers will be left, missing the early rapture, and passing through the great tribulation to LEARN to overcome. They are rapture or resurrected and raptured AFTERWARDS.This agrees in principle with visions of FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST taken at different times - separated by the major events of the great tribulation. Now do not misunderstand me here.The MANCHILD are the saints raptured pre-tribulation who physically died before that time. The FIRSTFRUITS are the living saints who are alive on earth during that time. BOTH MANCHILD and FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST and UNIVERSAL BRIGHT WOMAN are ONE mystical Body of Christ. In life they are all ONE Body. Revelation shows various timings of the destinies of these varied components of the ONE Body of all God's redeemed people. I'm not confused. PaulK want to portray me as being confused. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Oh, I do.
quote: So first you claim that the overcomers in verse 10-11 were Raptured. Then you claimed that they were left on Earth. Now you claim that some of them were and some weren’t. And you say that I don’t understand what I am saying ?
quote: However that also appears in Revelation 19 applied to a figure which you take - and I agree - to be Jesus alone. And since that is the limit of your case - it really isn’t that great.
quote: Please tell me the sensible reason for sabotaging your own argument by assuming that verses which seem to be about different people are about the same people.
quote: But you did. In Message 946 you tried to argue that verse 17 referred to them and that
they are more under the authority of the Devil still, suffering from his persecution and warring.
quote: At least I don’t resort to the dishonest tactic of demanding that my opponents support claims that they never made. It’s a cheap trick.
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