Christianity and the End Times

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The Manchild consists of those who did not love their soul-life EVEN UNTO DEATH. That strongly suggests that they DIED. Delivered and caught up to the throne of God means RESURRECTION and RAPTURE.

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And yet you tried to suggest otherwise.

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I'm not confused. PaulK want to portray me as being confused.

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Then you know perfectly well that you tried to suggest that they were

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So first you claim that the overcomers in verse 10-11 were Raptured. Then you claimed that they were left on Earth. Now you claim that some of them were and some weren’t.

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Please QUOTE me with the words which lead you to believe that I am saying that the overcomers (Manchild) are BOTH raptured to God's throne in the third heavens AND SIMULTANEOUSLY left on the earth to be persecuted for the thousand two hundred and sixty days. Quote me where you derived this understanding of what I have been saying.HOW did you get that kind of misunderstanding or understanding ?? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It should be pretty easy PaulK.Ie. I am alleging teaching - Taken and Left on the earth at the SAME time - the SAME people. Get me the QUOTE. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Please QUOTE me with the words which lead you to believe that I am saying that the overcomers (Manchild) are BOTH raptured to God's throne in the third heavens AND SIMULTANEOUSLY left on the earth to be persecuted for the thousand two hundred and sixty days.

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I have not made any such claim. I asserted that you made three claims independently. First that they were Raptured, then that they were left on Earth, then that some were Raptured and some were not. None involves any individual both being Raptured and left on Earth.

Quote the three independent claims for my examination.If you can't then you appear to me to be confused because you want to be confused.

There is no need to retract anything I wrote or wait for Paulk. Perhaps some clarification would help those wanting clarification. So I offer some further brief development on Rev. 12.The sign of the Woman standing and the Dragon waiting is seen in heaven (Rev. 12:1) . This does not mean that the Body of saints are IN heaven. But that the vision pertains to something so universal to be seen from the transcendent viewpoint of God.The Woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and with a crown of twelve stars is reminiscent of Joseph's vision of God's elect on earth in Genesis 37:9.The Woman also is reminiscent of Eve promised to bring forth a worthy opponent of the serpent to defeat him in Genesis 3:15.She cried out to deliver a child. The child refers to the Manchild of verse 5 specifically. That child is the stronger part within her. We should contrast Woman with Manchild as we would contrast the weaker vessel with the stronger vessel.Thoughout all generations a stronger part among all of God's people form an entity within the entire body of God's people. These form a collective fighting unit on behalf of the larger body of saints.Throughout the Bible a remnant among all of God's saints fight the battle of bringing in God's kingdom and authority to the earth.God's people have been suffering the travail of delivery - (Isa. 26:17-18; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Gal. 4:19) to bring forth a stronger and prevailing unit of saints to fight the battle for God in the spiritual warfare and bring in the kingdom of God.The travailing and crying out include the prayers of God's people.Sometimes we have noticed travailing petition and crying out prayer preceded spiritual victory in the Bible. Sometimes it must have been behind the scenes.The chief answer to these prayers is the coming of Christ. And of all the victors in Scripture Jesus Christ is the main and chief representative. He was God-man. Since He also was a Man all over men and women who overcome must do so through the victory that is in Him.His resurrection was also described BY Him Himself as a BIRTH of a man into the world. The point is that Jesus spoke of His resurrection as a BIRTH.
This is very related to God's people travailing through the ages for total victory over sin and death and all of the opposition of God's enemy.For this reason if someone were to argue with me that the Manchild represents Jesus Christ I would not say they were wrong. But they are incomplete in that God's purpose is that the life of Jesus Christ would be imparted into all His redeemed people.Now I expect some skeptical types to argue that all these things are not relevant. Of course they are as Revelation is a grand climax of the entire 66 books of the Bible.Of course the chief Head Overcoming human being this would be God incarnate as a man in Jesus Christ. In resurrection He says that His people will live because He lives. The believers will live in the sphere and realm of His resurrection life. They will live in union with Him in His state as the resurrected One. Jesus is the LEADING resurrected Overcomer.It is necessary to see these things even to understand what it means for the woman to be WITH CHILD. The "organic" unity between Christ and His church and those within the church who OVERCOME through Christ. The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee has a good explanation of the Woman and Manchild. Copied from The Collected Works of Watchman Nee (Set 2) Vol. 34. - The Glorious Church Published by Living Stream MinistryTitles A-Z | LSM Online PublicationsThe serpent who was at enmity with Eve in the prophecy of Gen. 3:15 has now seen as an enlarged dragon. The implication is that he has grown in power, in hatred, and in ferociousness as the Devil has throughout the ages continued to oppose God and His people.The dragon is "... the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth." (v.9) The redness of the dragon points to his murders and bloodshed as throughout the ages Satan has opposed God and God's people. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hello jaywill. I've been staying out of this discussion partly because I have trouble following your argument, besides its being between you and PaulK. I'm not even sure where to begin to respond to this last post of yours, but I have some general thoughts.I don't see how the Manchild can be any other than Jesus, who is to rule the world with a rod of iron, and there is nothing to suggest that this figure is in any sense plural as you seem to be saying. While His followers are certainly to have His nature, and do get to participate in His battles there's a way you seem to make far more of our part than scripture allows: He is the sovereign king, all the power is His, we are always needing His sustenance and help. But mostly I just don't see anything in the passage itself that includes believers in the figure of the Manchild. As PaulK says the figure iis singular.The woman may be a little less obvious but I don't see any clear reason not to interpret her as Israel, which gave birth to the Manchild. Yes there is a connection with Joseph's dream but that was also about Israel. The twelve stars suggest the twelve tribes. Also, Israel is often depicted as having labor pains. Laboring to bring forth the Messiah would be my interpretation, but also even laboring to bring forth the New Creation.I normally love Watchman Nee but what you quote of him about the Woman and the Manchild is so allegorical it doesn't make sense to me. The figures are already signs or symbols.I'm not getting into the details and may be overlooking some major points of yours but these things have been on my mind.ABE: Perhaps it's just that I'm totally lost in this discussion and should stay out of it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

As long as we are talking of possible metaphors, parables, and imagery within the context of scripture, do you see any connection between the woman with child and the Bride of Christ? Do you see the elect as the overcomers?
Do the overcomers together with the Elect do anything to earn their status? Do they perform works with no ulterior motive nor expectation of "being blessed" or of "making it"?
Is the child then representative of Christs Spiritual Body here on earth? (The Head, of course, being Him)?

On the contrary, it makes more sense to me for the manchild to be plural as a remnant, the Body of Christ...while still allowing Him to be the Head.This goes in line with the pyramid on the dollar bill with the eye of baal as the capstone rather than Christ Himself as the Capstone. The metaphor suggests a spiritual Body of Saints--overcomers---elect...what have you. But maybe I'm just interpreting it the way I want it to be. I certainly don't connect text to text without a common meaning and/or reason.

Then who are "the remnant of her seed" or her other offspring, of Revelation 12:17?

Off the cuff without reading or studying the text, I would suggest that they are the Christians who miss the Rapture. They have the Spirit but are not overcomers.Im lazy at times. jar is right in that I read scripture with a bent on having it say what I want it to say. I simply couldn't ever study the Bible dispassionately and critically if the book meant nothing to me.Add by Edit: John Gill sees it this way: Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Quote the three independent claims for my examination.

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Don’t you know what you said ?I’ve already quoted one, but here are the other two.For the first from Message 790

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The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.

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And in that message you directly identify the manchild as comprising the brethrenof verse 10

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And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11)

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(Which amazingly you seemed to forget as soon as I identified the overcomersof verse 11 with the brethren of verse 10 - even though it is a simple matter of grammar)Here is where you suggest that some were Raptured and some were not.

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A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.

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I don't see how the Manchild can be any other than Jesus, who is to rule the world with a rod of iron, and there is nothing to suggest that this figure is in any sense plural as you seem to be saying.

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I believe the Manchild IS Jesus. But he is Jesus DISPENSED into a group of people. I believe it is Jesus IMPARTED successfully into a group of people. That is Triune God WROUGHTS Jesus into the souls of a group of cooperative believers who have ALLOWED God to do so.In cooperating with God's eternal plan to dispense divine life into some receivers, they become the STRONGER part of the general total Body of Christ.Jesus Himself expected this. He said that through Him his believers would do greater things. Now this means "greater" according to what God deems is great. And God deems as great the Christ be EXPANDED and ENLARGED into human beings.An example: The works He does (excluding redemption) His believers shall do.
Greater than these (greater according to God's measure of greatness) they shall do.The man-child is a symbolic representation of such who rise to this expectation.

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While His followers are certainly to have His nature, and do get to participate in His battles there's a way you seem to make far more of our part than scripture allows: He is the sovereign king, all the power is His, we are always needing His sustenance and help.

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The revelation of the man-child does not in any way rob Jesus Christ of His unique honor of being THE sovereign King. On the contrary.When Christ promises to the overcomers that what He does with the nations in the millennium they ALSO will do (compare Rev. 19:15 with Rev. 2:26) there is no hint that He or His Father considers this as ROBBING Christ of His unique honor as THE sovereign King.When Christ promises to the overcomers to sit with Him on His throne as He sat with His Father on His throne (Rev. 3:21) there is no hint that this CO-honor is ROBBING Christ of His unique dignity as THE sovereign King.What we should see is that in both cases the promises are made to the ones who OVERCOME.One more example. When the parable of the returning Lord grants one faithful servant to rule over ten cities and another to rule over five cities (Luke 19:17) this is an honor to them. It is not taking AWAY any honor to the Lord and Master who thus rewards them.In fact, in the parallel teaching in Matthew 25:23 this is the rewarded ones entering into the joy of the Lord. What He enjoys they are rewarded to CO-enjoy. There is no hint there that the master considered the rewarded slave as disrespectfully robbing any honor FROM the master.

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But mostly I just don't see anything in the passage itself that includes believers in the figure of the Manchild. As PaulK says the figure iis singular.

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That manchild is SINGULAR is not a problem to me because the oneness and unity of salvation is to manifest one new man .When un-opposed, unhindered and overcome the cooperating recipients of salvation put on "THE NEW MAN." God's full salvation is meant to save us from all social stratification of cultural divisions and bring us into one expression of a new humanity - one NEW MAN. This is the intended and normal outcome of His salvation.Oneness to express one FULL GROWN MAN is intended by Jesus and not hindered. The outcome of maturity in the growth of divine life will manifest a ONENESS and a MAN. This is something strong for God's eternal purpose. And it is something Satan fears and fights with all his might to prevent from coming into being.Paul goes on to teach that it is being as CHILDREN to be kept from this maturity in growth. Now Paul says Until ... we ALL ARRIVE ... . We may not ALL ARRIVE at the same time. Some, as so often depicted in the Scripture, pave the way to ARRIVE at God's intention before the rest and for the SAKE of the rest.This is the principle of the man-child. They ON TIME, manifest the one new man to express Christ and exercise CO-dominion with Christ.Denominations, divisions, strifes, enmities, jealousies, sectarian divisions and works of the flesh and disunity of all types in the church are Satan's master strokes to prevent this ONE NEW MAN from coming into existence.The very growth of life in the Body of Christ is for the bringing into being this oneness of maturity in divine life. The Ephesian passage continues: The divine life imparted into believers is not merely for individual salvation. It is for the manifestation of the stronger new man in a corporate way. The life within Christians longs for this to come about.

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The woman may be a little less obvious but I don't see any clear reason not to interpret her as Israel, which gave birth to the Manchild. Yes there is a connection with Joseph's dream but that was also about Israel. The twelve stars suggest the twelve tribes. Also, Israel is often depicted as having labor pains. Laboring to bring forth the Messiah would be my interpretation, but also even laboring to bring forth the New Creation.

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Israel is a part of this woman of universal light. We should not say she is ONLY Israel. Nor should we say she is ONLY the new testament church. She is the TOTALITY of God's people throughout three dispensations -The pre-law age of the patriarchs (the stars as a crown)
The age of the law as the believers under Moses' law (the moon REFLECTING the sun).
The age of grace in Christ (the Sun of righteousness) clothing the greater part of her total body.In each of these ages faithful overcomers followed Christ.
Remember that Christ is God.
And even the Israelite Moses before the incarnation of Christ was said to have chosen suffering with God's people and "the reproach of the Christ". My point here is that before the incarnation of Christ the saints of previous ages lived UNTO Christ. Christ is said to be both the ROOT and the BRANCH of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1 comp. Revelation 22:16) Christ is the SOURCE of all the godly saints in ages. He is also the OUTCOME to have come from them, seeing He is God incarnate as a MAN Like us.

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I normally love Watchman Nee but what you quote of him about the Woman and the Manchild is so allegorical it doesn't make sense to me. The figures are already signs or symbols.

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In my opinion you should take a little time then to read the whole book of The Glorious Church by Brother Nee which you can read online atTitles A-Z | LSM Online Publications

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I'm not getting into the details and may be overlooking some major points of yours but these things have been on my mind.

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Don't overlook that Adam was called the first man.
And Jesus Christ is called the last Adam and the second man.If a group of people grow up in Christ and into Christ in all things they will manifest a new humanity of man blended with God, man united with God, man expressing God.And this is according to God's original purpose in CREATING man in the first place - for man to express God and have dominion on behalf of God. This is the expression and dominion which man LOST in the fall to be under Satan's rebellious authority. Christ came to recover the eternal purpose of man and to actually bring man to an even higher station in His full salvation.Though not all arrive at the same time, all who are saved will arrive by the time of the new heaven and new earth. Before the millennium God collects those who matured into a man-child to be resurrected and raptured to be CO-rulers with Jesus the God-man.Arrogance is excluded. It is ONLY through His salvation that they can achieve this. And it is only in ONENESS that it can be achieved. Christ Himself is the essential element of this oneness among His saints. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.

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This means that before the great tribulation a group of saints are raptured.
This group consists of two parts - 1.) those LIVING at the time and overcoming. 2.) those who were "asleep" (dead in Christ) in Hades at that time ... who lived overcoming lives.The group taken up to the third heavens (in Revelation) are shown in two chapters - 1.) chapter 14 (as Firstfruits )
2.) chapter 12 (as the Man-child )Aside from some caveats not addressed at the moment, THIS was the basic meaning of what I wrote (albeit probably not in the best English prose):

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The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.

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Your objection then:

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And in that message you directly identify the manchild as comprising the brethrenof verse 10

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To clarify then. BRETHREN must be ANY brethren whether taken to heaven or left on the earth.I do not mean to communicate that the ones raptured are BRETHREN but the ones left on the earth are NOT BRETHREN.The BRETHREN who have overcome are BRETHREN.
But the BRETHREN still left defeated and harrassed upon the earth are still BRETHREN.Which BRETHREN are told to REJOICE?
Well for CERTAIN - the BRETHREN who have overcome and been raptured REJOICE. Rapture (though not a biblical word per se) means a kind of ecstatic JOY. So of course the raptured ones REJOICE.Whether the ones left rejoice or not I am not sure. I hope some do, seeing that the time is near for Christ to come down to earth. But that they were left should not be a matter to rejoice over.I will take more time to look into this. But no major problem do I see in this exhortation to rejoice about OUR BROTHERS to understanding the Man-child as BROTHERS - BRETHREN brought into the fullest happiness of seeing the dramatic fruit of their endurance in resurrection, rapture, vindication, and forcing Satan and his hosts to NO LONGER have space to accuse God's saints before God as he does.If I am following what you object to.You point out then:

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And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11)

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I can stand by this because PLURAL brotherS means a group.Now if the ones TAKEN were brothers and the ones left were brothers, the ones with standing to be referred to as having OVERCOME are the brothers taken and not left.IF all the brothers are on the earth and ONLY Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, there is no reason to count the harrassed, persecuted, opposed, and overcome saints to be described as rejoicing at the arrival of the kingdom of God. To which BROTHERS would this be more appropriate an announcement?Would it be more appropriate to those who physically resurrect and JOIN Christ at the throne of God in Heaven ?Or would it be more appropriate to the rest of the fleeing seed of the woman over whom Satan and the Antichrist are permitted to make war and overcome THEM? Which group of BROTHERS has more reason to rejoice ?I say it would be the BROTHERS who are through with Satan's accusation.
I say it is the BROTHERS who conquered by standing on the power of Christ's redemption in the blood of the Lamb. I think it is the BROTHERS who speak the word of their testimony and denied themselves at the cost of their lives throughout the ages.Many saints have not denied themselves. They have SAVED the SELF and shoned dying with Christ to be raised with Christ.Those who denied the SELF and overcame rejoice at the sudden vindication of being caught up to God and His throne in Rapture. Their place is now in Heaven. The place prepared for those saints left on earth in some "wilderness".These taken are fully NOURISHED. The majority are UNDERNOURISHED. But the faithful God prepares a place where they may BE nourished.I suspect that you will regard these words are extraneous and irrelevant facts. But I have not lost focus.HOW DO I KNOW THAT THE "THEM, THEIR, THEY, BROTHERS" mean a corporate man-child caught up to God's throne in heaven ?I think it is the better interpretation. It may not be the traditional or popular interpretation in Christiandom.

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(Which amazingly you seemed to forget as soon as I identified the overcomersof verse 11 with the brethren of verse 10 - even though it is a simple matter of grammar)

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If one has to identify overcoming BROTHERS in that chapter, by far it should not be:1.) angels
2.) humans on earth being overcome by Satan and the Antichrist (Rev.13:7)
3.) Christ as an individual I am persuaded that the stronger Man-child refers - Christ as a corporate body of a remnant - the best interpretation.
That is a corporate man-child coming out FROM the Woman. You can interpret it differently if you feel to.

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Here is where you suggest that some were Raptured and some were not.

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I did not suggest this. I plainly stated it from the beginning of my analysis of Revelation 12.What was not clear was that BOTH groups are BROTHERS - Raptured and overoming BROTHERS who rejoice at the Kingdom of God NOW and LEFT BROTHERS who have another forty-two months or a thousand two hundred and sixty days before they may REJOICE in the arrival of the kingdom of God.You highlight that I wrote:

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A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.

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That is basically right. And the chapter strongly indicates that at least there are rejoicing people in heaven and people on the earth who have instead of rejoicing WOE for a short period more of time. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

After some rest I will try to show from the structure of the book of Revelation, that it should be divided into TWO major sections.The actual end of the end times arrives in chapter 11.
What follows chapter 11 starting with chapter 12 is something of a revisiting of the events previously mentioned with a particular FOCUS on the last three and one half years of the age.This is the difference between the scroll in chapter 4 and 5 and the little scroll in chapter 10.What we read then in chapters 12 and 13 is something of a rehash of what we have already read about in chapter 9. I speak of Satan being limited from roaming in the spheres of the upper heavens and being driven down to the earth in the last few years of the age before Christ's setting foot on the earth again.Please prepared by reading Revelation 9 through 13 or at least chapter 9 and chapters 10 and 11.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.