Christianity and the End Times

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The tactics of these skeptics include making each part of the Scripture as unrelated to any other part as they can.

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Presumably you are talking about yourself, given your frequent attempts to ignore the context of the verses you cite.

So in the end of the age, whether is be near or far, what will happen to the jars and Paulks of this world?God says that because some people did not have a love for the truth, strong delusion will be sent upon them. The irony is that they will opt to believe a convincing looking LIE instead. Whenever I read this I think of the Old Testament story of the king who hated the prophet. So God sent (by His providence) a lying spirit to him in irony. That is that he would give himself over to the lie since he hated the truth from God for his own good.See Second Kings 22, Second Chronicles 18 concerning Ahab.Whether near in time or still distant. the strong current to carry the unbelievers off in deception will God's providential way polarize the situation on earth into clear camps.I would rather "Seek the Lord while He can be found. Call upon Him while He is near." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Presumably you are talking about yourself, given your frequent attempts to ignore the context of the verses you cite.

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So says the guy who makes Revelation 12:10,11 have absolutely no contextual relationship with anything else in the chapter.

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God says that because some people did not have a love for the truth, strong delusion will be sent upon them. The irony is that they will opt to believe a convincing looking LIE instead

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Fortunately we do love the truth, so your deceptions do not work on us.

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So says the guy who makes Revelation 12:10,11 have absolutely no contextual relationship with anything else in the chapter.

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By which you mean that I do read them in context. You just don’t like the fact that the context doesn’t make the connection you want.But just go on being dishonest, it shows that you are no true Christian.

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By which you mean that I do read them in context.

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By which I mean you don't think the taking up of the man-child has anything to do with proclamation and review of the overcomers.Suddenly, quite unrelated to anything, How the overcomers overcame is rejoiced over.You imagine that is has nothing to do with the delivery and catching up of the man-child.

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You just don’t like the fact that the context doesn’t make the connection you want.

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You just don't like that the connection between the announcement of the kingdom's coming NOW and the explanation of the overcomers is connected to the birth and catching up of the man-child.

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But just go on being dishonest, it shows that you are no true Christian.

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No, it shows that you have eyes to see and see not.

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By which I mean you don't think the taking up of the man-child has anything to do with proclamation and review of the overcomers.

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Which is exactly what I said. The real context does not make the connection.

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Suddenly, quite unrelated to anything, How the overcomers overcame is rejoiced over.

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And that is untrue, the fall of the devil is celebrated because it will end the accusations he made against the overcomers.

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You just don't like that the connection between the announcement of the kingdom's coming NOW and the explanation of the overcomers is connected to the birth and catching up of the man-child.

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By which you mean that I do read those verses in context.

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No, it shows that you have eyes to see and see not.

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Then please explain how dishonesty is compatible with being a Christian.

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You just don’t like the fact that the context doesn’t make the connection you want.

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I like this one.Okay Paulk, let's give you your interpretation for the moment.How am I harmed if the man-child caught up to God and to His throne ONLY refers to the individual Jesus ?Or did you have someone ELSE in mind ?Let's say your interpretation is safer somehow. Is it a major blow to my Christian faith that the vision, plopped down in the middle of the chapter, relates to Jesus ascending to Heaven ?Is that a show stopper to my Christian faith ?Even if I am wrong about the symbolism, the PLAIN TEACHING gives me the saints who overcome reign with Christ. (Rev. 2:26).Why wouldn't there be a symbolic representation of what we are clearly told will be to the overcomers?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Keep in mind the issue that jar framed and I observed, namely that we have two basic sides (as I see it so far) in these discussions. I disagree with jars scathing opinion about Christian apologists and apologetics in general.I would argue that there is a spirit or a vibe behind the motive(s) of either side.The motive of one side is to promote Jesus Christ.The motive of the other side is to make a case that the book is nothing special and to teach people to take reality at face value. The problem being that Jesus Christ is not promoted. One side feels it important--indeed mandatory---to promote Jesus as Gods character which all of us would do well to know.The other side perhaps unknowingly challenges the idea that the apologists promote---that of a living Christ and a communing Spirit throughout the part of humanity that chooses to surrender their self-autonomy. They, of course, would argue that they never check their brains at the door and would ask how such a communion is possible---never realizing that it is through Faith and not Evidence. The evidence comes after the faith is professed.

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Then please explain how dishonesty is compatible with being a Christian.

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Ah yes. Switch the subject to me warding off ad homs.So the only "honest" understanding is that the man-child is not a collective?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Speaking of honesty, who do you conclude that Jesu Christ was (and perhaps IS)? Are you an atheist? What is your motive for teaching scriptural context as you do? Also read my post above this one and tell me if I framed the basic argument (between two sides) properly.

Why is that a problem?

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The other side perhaps unknowingly challenges the idea that the apologists promote---that of a living Christ and a communing Spirit throughout the part of humanity that chooses to surrender their self-autonomy. They, of course, would argue that they never check their brains at the door and would ask how such a communion is possible---never realizing that it is through Faith and not Evidence. The evidence comes after the faith is professed.

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Usually I simply like to explain why a certain problem for the unbeliever is not a problem to me. That's basically it. The reason for the hope that is within me.The myth that the skeptic comes to the Bible with no baggage or stuff he prefers to believe is just that - a myth.Jar comes to the Bible with a lot of preferences and baggage of stuff he wants to put his hope in.

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How am I harmed if the man-child caught up to God and to His throne ONLY refers to the individual Jesus ?

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You’d have one less piece of evidence for the pre-tribulation Rapture you want to be in the Bible for one. And that really does matter to you, as you’ve shown.

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Even if I am wrong about the symbolism, the PLAIN TEACHING gives me the saints who overcome reign with Christ. (Rev. 2:26).

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And if you notice I have never argued against that. That is not the issue at all.

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Speaking of honesty, who do you conclude that Jesu Christ was (and perhaps IS)? Are you an atheist?

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So far as I can tell Jesus was an obscure cult leader who lived in early 1st Century Judaea. He was so obscure that even his followers in the latter part of that century didn’t know when he was born, as the Gospels that give datable information point to dates about ten years apart.And I am an atheist.But that is because the truth is important to me. It obviously isn’t to Jaywill, or apparently to you.