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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I sense a rebellious spirit in you. Perhaps it is an evil one. Then again, you could say the same about me since I ignored the guy wanting spare change on Christmas. he has stolen from our store before. Forgive me, father, for I have sinned.
In all seriousness, though...I think you overinflate your own common sense and reject too many people whom you disagree with...calling them stupid and misguided. How was your relationship with your earthly father? Did you argue with him? Was he around when you were younger? You are an interesting scientific study...a true thorn in the flesh of those of us who have spent years studying things that you challenge. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Adults don't know everything. Who are you to tell me that my belief is imaginary? I would never step on anyone's toes and tell them that their belief was false or illogical unless I knew that it would be harmful to them to continue to think that way. I'll continue to pray for you and ringo. My imaginary friend will meet you both someday. Lest I sound arrogant, I'm open to correction, but not insults. Both of you need a good whipping for disrespecting Pastor ICANT. The relationship you guys talk of is like the relationship some children have with their imaginary friend. It seems real to them but the adults know they'll grow out of it. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: That's what the message tells us. Why are you picking and choosing which parts of the message you accept? We may all be "sinners" but there is no reason to think we "need" a "saviour". Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I have told you my theory. It gets personal, however...so I hesitate bringing it up here in public. I question your motives for being a rebel. I feel as if you at some point in your life have had issues with authority. It has made you the way you are. A pastor worth his salt would be able to put up a real argument. You are really something else! I really like our discussions. Iron sharpens iron, they say. Most Pastors would tell me to avoid you. They would say that people such as Richard Carrier and ringo can destroy someone's faith. I was watching Carrier this morning. Why Invent the Jesus? Richard Carrier Ph.D. I had previously watched the videos that I shared with ICANT in our debate. So Carrier and the apologists strongly disagree. Were I to judge Dr.Carrier at all, it would be the observation that he comes across as smug and self-assured in his theory. And I note that he gets paid to do what he does, so I won't attack the apologists on that reason. Why do you dismiss the apologists? Why is their argument less persuasive to you than Dr.Carrier? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So are all of them knowing liars? (in your opinion) I'm rejecting the apologists' made-up message.Or do you see them as ignorant? In order to dismiss what they say, I would have to either believe that they were either liars or hucksters. I see no reason for either...at least no more than I see in Dr.Carrier. So it boils down to the information. Again the question...why are the arguments of the apologists dismissed and why are the arguments of the myth busters acceptable?
ringo writes: Matthew 25 says so, but not the Gospel of John. What makes you think that God is a fictional character in a book? In our hypothetical Bible Study, why would you even attend? What would be your motive? The message tells us that we will be saved by doing what the messenger told us to do, not by anything the messenger does.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Here we go again! Good morning, by the way. Is it cold up North?
ringo writes: Because in real life, the builder cannot be present at each project at the same time and in diverse places. The real question is whether the builder is willing to include human development in each project which he completes. The next question, as we have gone over before, is whether the builder feels a need to hang out with the human occupants and be an advisor or whether He simply leaves instructions and messages for the occupants to complete themselves.
I'm wondering why people conflate the builder with the landlord. In real life, the builder builds and then moves on to the next project. ringo writes: I believe that te relationship is more of a communion than a master/servant relationship. To me, it seems more plausible to believe in One Builder than it does a pantheon of various builders and various landlords or Bosses for differing projects within the human experience.
So why would you think that the Creator and the God that you pray to are the same entity?Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place? Are you serious? What makes little sense is jars idea of a bumbling fumbling Deity learning on the job whom humans have to correct...unless such a story supports the idea of humans creating and imagining various Deities, Imps, Fairies, and Spaghetti Monsters within the human imaginative experience. I do not believe that way.
worshiping God is a nonsensical concept to begin with. How petty is He that He needs or wants to be worshiped? We pay honor and respect to human kings and dignitaries. Its not about them being petty or needy. Its about honoring them and giving them a place of honor at the head of the table rather than hanging out with the workers in the kitchen. Note, furthermore, that Jesus willingly did the latter.
How can there be a rational belief in something that has no evidence to support it? Again, evidence removes the need for belief or free willed choice. We really don't have free will in regards to gravity, unless we build a plane. Even then our freedom is temporary. ringo writes: Since when are we insisting that God conform to our standards? There has to be compromise at the very least between His standards and ours.
His "mysterious ways" are not rational by our standards.ringo writes: Nobody will ever know everything. And yet I have noticed that you have low regard...contempt even...for belief. Note your quote:
Believers tell EVERYBODY that God works in mysterious ways. That's their excuse for anything they can't explain (...)it has nothing to do with who knows more. I'm talking about what believers think they know and the excuses they make for not knowing.ringo writes:
There's ignorance, then there's willful ignorance, then there's militant ignorance and then there's belief.Phat, to ICANT writes:
of my critic's Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book.ICANT writes: And you will claim that you are awaiting evidence and that the God of the Bible cannot be trusted. Silly rabbit! Its because you limit Him to the book and have such contempt for belief in the first place. Actually they limit Him to the abilities of mankind. (...)They believe He is not God as He is a product of the thoughts of mankind, therefore He does not exist other than in the minds of some deluded people like Phat and ICANT.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
Disrespect is earned.Matthew 10:40 writes: Did you ever consider that messages get disrespected because whoever sent the messenger was never respected in the first place? Note tangles reaction to my even talking with ICANT rather than insulting and belittling him as others do:
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.quote:Which seems a bit out of proportion to the offense. First off, I grovel to nobody except God. Pastor ICANT is no more respected by me than you or Tangle. Yet something about him sure seems to set you off. Even if he was ignorant in regards to science is hardly a reason to insult him. ringo writes: But it strengthens the case why human nature selectively villifies and attacks certain arguments or people and ignores others. You're getting pretty desperate. That "demon" rubbish just weakens your case for God.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You need to broaden your metaphor. God is more than simply a builder or a landlord.
The landlord has a say in what the tenant does on his property; the builder doesn't. So why conflate the builder with the landlord?Isa 9:6-7 writes: Thus we have no mere builder. No autocratic landlord. We have a counselor, a father figure, and a peacemaker. Human society can use those. Your problem is that you don't trust the God of the book, and are afraid to dare imagine One Who exists outside the book.
6 For unto us a Child is born,Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. NKJV In addition, you guys conflate simple fantasy and imagination...making things up...with an internal impression, communion, and conscience. Of course, you will argue that there is no evidence of such a presence apart from our own mental thoughts. Thus we are again at a stalemate. I know your position, however. You will argue that the message specifies that we are to do it ourselves. Be our own counselors. Fathers. Peacemakers. What you likely scoff at is the idea that we are becoming our own gods. But its true. Did you watch the Michio Kaku video? The Universe in a Nutshell (Full Presentation) It's a good video and I respect Dr.Kaku. But note the attitude. It's an unbridled optimism that humans will become like gods.To his credit, Dr.Kaku is honest about his beliefs. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
GDR writes:
Why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over.ringo writes:
We all do. We just find ever more creative ways of repeating it.
Because you keep repeating the same thing over and over. ringo writes: The dispensationalists disagree with you. (surprise, surprise)
There is no clear demarcation between Old and New Testaments. Christians just arbitrarily start the New at Jesus' birth.Stam writes: The supposition that the most important division of the Bible is that betweenthe Old and New Testaments has often been expressed in the statement: "The Old Testament is for the Jews; the New Testament is for us." This is quite incorrect, however. First of all, the titles Old Testament and New Testament are not accurate designations of the two sections of the Bible which they are supposed to represent. The covenant of the law (later called the old covenant, or testament) was not made until 2500 years of human history had elapsed. "The law was given by Moses" (John 1:17), about 1500 B.C., as recorded in Exodus 19 and 20. We are told concerning this period of time "from Adam to Moses" that "there [was] no law" (Rom. 5:13,14), i.e., the law had not yet been given. This means that there is actually not one word of the old testament in Genesis. Indeed, Israel did not even emerge as a nation until her deliverance from Egypt described in Exodus. If, therefore, the Old Testament is for the Jews and the New Testament for us, for whom is the book of Genesis? As to the new covenant; this was not made until the death of Christ. "... He is the Mediator of the new testament [covenant] that by means of death ... they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb. 9:15). It was in the shadow of the cross, as our Lord communed with His disciples, that He said: "This cup Is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20). This means that the greater part of the four gospel records actually covers old testament rather than new testament history and that our Lord and His disciples all lived under the old covenant at that time. Stam has a lot to say, and makes a well thought out argument. Things That Differ But you and perhaps ZTangle will simply argue that it is at best a new book seeking to explain the reasoning behind the older book and that in the end it is all human opinion anyway. There is no convincing you...you already concluded that your grasp of logic, reason, and reality negated any truths found in Christianity apart from your favored socialist message to go feed the poor and ignore a God in a book. Cant argue with you there. I will keep trying, however. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just a note, GDR. He also does not claim to be an atheist...I think he calls himself a Deist with a bent towards logic, reason, and reality. Note how he insists that the Bible be strictly read as written, however. I believe ringo wants either arguments based on scripture or based on already written facts or philosophies rather than us simply making them up on the fly. Comments, ringo?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I have done no such thing. You jump to conclusions.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You claim I reject what Jesus said in the book. I do not. I only reject the idea that Jesus and God are confined to the book.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You reject what He said about giving everything. I only mention that its not realistic. The evidence seems to show that nobody does it. One could thus argue that everyone rejects that message.
You reject what He said about how to be a sheep or a goat. Was He talking to me? I only question the passage and am mystified why you and jar fawn over it as the central message in the Bible when so few apologists do. I question you more than I do the message. I question why you think its silly for there to be a resurrection yet not silly to hang your hat on Matthew 25.
You belittle the very idea of giving to the poor. I won't try and wiggle out of this one. I need to help the poor more than I do.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: First of all, this is a generalization. It is like telling you that "Doctors want to keep you sick". Not all of them do. If in fact, the apologists all wanted to tell me what I wanted to hear, the question would then be:
The apologists tell you what you want to hear. That's like a doctor telling you to eat whatever you want.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You need to allow yourself the luxury of being metaphorical and idealistic rather than so stiff and starchy collared in regards to evidence. Resurrection can be symbolic. It is, in essence, a new birth. Turning over a new leaf. Wholesale repentance and repudiation of an old lifestyle and embracing a new one. Whether or not God raised Jesus in physical actuality, He was raised metaphorically and (unlike any human before Him) completely. Death and imperfection lost their sting. Nobody has suggested that science is immutable. As soon as you can produce scientific evidence that resurrection is possible, we can start to examine (any) evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. Until then, resurrection is just as impossible as walking across the Pacific Ocean or flapping your arms to the moon.Until then, resurrection is just as impossible as walking across the Pacific Ocean or flapping your arms to the moon. We visualized crossing the Pacific Ocean long before we even knew if there was a destination. (we thought we may fall off the edge). We visualized going to the moon long before we could even fly. Stop thinking of the resurrection as a necessary objective fact and start looking at it as a metaphorical ideal. Until one man accomplishes anything, that thing is impossible to accomplish. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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