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Author | Topic: Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I am not asking you to go with me, but with what the Bible clearly says. Apparently you prefer your so-called reputable exegetes .
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Listening to John MacArthur on the Millennial Kingdom. Fascinating. Want to hear more after this.
The martyrs you mention join with the Church Christians and the Old Testament saints to have some kind of ruling role in the Kingdom (about 10:00). Have to keep listening to find out what. Anyway, it's only the unbelievers who have to wait until the end of the Millennium to be judged.. . Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That isn’t what Revelation 20:4-6 says,
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Edited by PaulK, : Fix tag
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think you are overlooking the meaning of the "thrones." Those are what imply the Old and New Testament saints are accompanying the Tribulating saints.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I think that you are making assumptions. It is far from clear that those sitting on the thrones come down to rule on Earth. Nor is it clear from this text who they are. Grammatically there seems to be no antecedent for the they who sit on the thrones. There is an antecedent for the they who reign with Christ and it is the martyrs who are resurrected. So, no I’m not ignoring them, I’m following the grammar of the text. And you still haven’t explained why this would be the first resurrection if there was an earlier mass resurrection only seven years before. Also Revelation 6:9-11 seems relevant.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Note that it is the souls of the martyrs, just as we see the souls of the martyrs in Revelation 20:4 - before they are resurrected. It is these verses which indicate to me that the earlier martyrs are resurrected in 20:4.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes those are apparently the same martyrs.
The thrones are not identified, but when the Millennium begins the Church will have accompanied Christ to Earth for His Millennial reign and I don't know how the OT saints figure in but the 24 elders we see back in Revelation 4 I believe are understood to represent the 12 patriarchs of the OT and the 12 disciples of Jesus. In any case they are NOT the martyrs, they represent a separate group or groups of believers. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That is what you say. However the text explicitly states that the resurrected martyrs will reign with Christ - and it doesn’t mention anyone else reigning.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's what YOU say, and it's John MacArthur and probably scores of other theologians who say what I'm saying. I am just learning all this stuff for the first time and my views may change, but the idea has always been that it's the "saints" who rule in the Millennium and that certainly includes Christians and Old Testament saints. The Church is present with Christ so what do you imagine us doing for that thousand years? The martyrs are no holier than any other believer in Christ. But as I keep listening perhaps I'll have a clearer view of all this.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: And we already know that they say things which aren’t true. Sorry, an argument from authority won’t cut it when the alleged authorities are so questionable.
quote: I think that’s an assumption. The dead Christians stay dead until after the Millenium, that’s clear. Look, if you can support your claims with actual scripture go ahead. But so far you’ve not been able to find much. Maybe you should ask yourself why your authorities are doing such a poor job of supporting their assertions.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What should be asked is why YOU are so committed to denying the obvious scripturqally based arguments of the God-given teachers I've been quoting. You twist everything to suit what YOU think, you don't even bother quoting reputable teachers, and what YOU think is worth nothing.
The presence of the Church in the Millennium follows from everything I've been arguing and the teachers I've quoted, it is not an assumption. The problem is that you haven't the spiritual discernment to know how to use the scriptures properly but like so many unbelievers who think they know how to read the Bible you put yourself above the believers and somehow manage not to doubt your superiority. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: What should be asked is why YOU are so committed to denying the obvious scripturqally based arguments of the God-given teachers I've been quoting. There is zero evidence that any of the people you market are "God given" as opposed to "Satan owned". What Paul has been quoting is not what the Snake Oil Medicine Men are selling but rather what is actually written.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is plenty of evidence that they are God-given to those who have spiritual discernment, which those who deny the basic tenets of the faith do not have and that includes you/
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is zero evidence of spiritual discernment but ample evidence of what is actually written in the Bible stories and it is what is actually written that provides understanding and not the sales pitch of carny snake oil medicine men.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sure, spiritual discernment is itself spiritually discerned and if you don't have that then you don't have evidence.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've been listening to John MacArthur's various sermons on end times themes and am now in the Book of Revelation. Jumping around, not taking it in order, but absolutely awed with the territory he covers and I just want to report that. I think he is definitely one of the best of the best preachers on this subject -- or any biblical subject for that matter -- and everything he says has been eyeopening for me in one way or another because the man KNOWS the scripture.
I've read the Book of Revelation, made myself read it more than once because we are TOLD to read it (or hear it) because blessings are attached to reading it. And I'm so glad I did that because although I ended up with questions galore after reading it, now listening to MacArthur's many sermons I am able to see how it all fits together in a way I could never have done if I didn't have a basic knowledge of what's actually IN the book. It's not that I think absolutely everything he says is gospel truth, I do have some doubts about some things he says here and there, but the preponderance of what he says is jawdroppingly illuminating. Maybe a series on Revelation by any good Bible teacher would have the same effect, but I do think MacArthur is more on top of it than any others I can think of, and clearer and better organized in his presentations. So this is just an appreciation of MacArthur's study of Revelation. Maybe nobody here will be interested but I wanted to say this because the teaching is so rich and useful... I just have to lavish praise where praise is due. I'm overwhelmed. I've been at it most of the day, really don't want to stop, but I have to take a rest from it whether I like it or not. After resting up I expect to come back for another mind-expanding dive into this great teaching.
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