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Author Topic:   Money Isn't a False God
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 106 of 150 (615829)
05-17-2011 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by purpledawn
05-16-2011 5:15 AM


Re: Money Can Be A False God By Definition
purpledawn writes:


quote:
Now please try to respond to these verses instead of ignoring them and/or denying that I have presented them.
As you noted, I did address them in Message 33. I also addressed the issue in Message 102. Jesus and Paul addressed behavior. Comparing greed to idolatry was Paul's way of vilifying greed. In reality, greed isn't idolatry either. He used an unacceptable action to vilify another unacceptable action.

So if those who compare money to false gods do so to vilify money, that's not a good message. Money is something that is necessary to daily life.

Do all the items in Message 81 deserve to be vilified?
Some even add church and children to the list.

Vilify the behavior as Paul did, don't vilify the object.


It seems to me that Jesus and Paul are "vilifying" attitudes more than behavior, but this is a quibble.

Paul uses idolatry as a metaphor for greed, and idolater as a metaphor for a greedy person. You can't have an idolater without an idol. Paul's metaphors imply that he views wealth (or possibly it's accumulation) as the metaphorical idol.

My point is that these metaphors are first-century biblical metaphors, not 20th or 16th century inventions as you have claimed.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by purpledawn, posted 05-16-2011 5:15 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2355 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 107 of 150 (615899)
05-18-2011 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by kbertsche
05-17-2011 10:00 AM


Covetousness
quote:
Paul uses idolatry as a metaphor for greed, and idolater as a metaphor for a greedy person. You can't have an idolater without an idol. Paul's metaphors imply that he views wealth (or possibly it's accumulation) as the metaphorical idol.
Sigh!

As I've pointed out many, many, many times in this thread, the accumulation of wealth is not forbidden. Covetousness is forbidden. The difference is in how one accumulates their wealth. If done honestly, there is no problem. If done dishonestly it is covetousness. The point being that the person wants what others have and will take it illegally. That's why it ends up on the wicked list along with idolatry.

I don't think Paul was using the word idolatry as a metaphor for greed.

quote:
My point is that these metaphors are first-century biblical metaphors, not 20th or 16th century inventions as you have claimed.

I don't know that I did claim that. I've referred to the meanings of our English words "idol" and "worship".

In Message 95, I stated: The broader meanings of idol (adoring a person) and worship (excessive adoration) are attested to the late 1500's.

IOW, when used in the Bible we need to be careful we don't assume a later meaning and understand them as the people of the time would have. We have to understand the metaphor in the context of their time, not ours.

Paul's metaphor concerning greed isn't pointed at the money. It is the behavior. I showed you in Message 102 that Paul had nothing against wealth.

How was covetousness like idolatry in Paul's day?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by kbertsche, posted 05-17-2011 10:00 AM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 150 (884160)
01-24-2021 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-01-2011 10:16 AM


Reopening An Old Thread
Moving this conversation from The Biden Presidency thread. I believe that once Covid simmers down, the next looming challenge for the Biden administration will center around money. And I guyarantee you that nothing will rile up the Right Wing as much as any careless talk about reparations towards any one group of people exclusivly to the exclusion of others. Kamala best back off from any suggestions in that direction.

Our discussion started with a joke by anglagard, which triggered my reaction.
Message 46 Message 47

Imagine the reaction that many of you had to the Trump tax cuts. As strongly as you may feel against that, I feel twice as repulsed by any suggestion of reparations. We are not paying either the Native Americans nor the African Americans anything back. We simply do not have it. (And the few who do will find ways to protect it) Everyone needs to simply bury any hatchets and try to get along in the future. Stirring up old arguments will simply reopen wounds and pour gasoline on racism. Move along...nothing to see here.

PD (Topic Starter) writes:

This isn't about which gods are false, but what constitutes a false god. I have noticed many times Christians have made the comment that money and power are false gods. I assume it stems from the verses in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13 that state one cannot serve two masters. One can't serve God and money.

I disagree that money or power are on the level with a deity.
I disagree that money or power are worshiped.(...)The teaching means we shouldn't be stingy with material wealth.

But I would argue that we cant simply hand out stimulus checks and pay people back for 300 year injustices.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 05-01-2011 10:16 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2021 4:26 AM Phat has responded
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2021 4:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 109 of 150 (884161)
01-24-2021 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
01-24-2021 2:12 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
But I would argue that we cant simply hand out stimulus checks and pay people back for 300 year injustices.

I don't know anything about any reparations but we've been sending out stimulus checks to the tune of several 100 $$$billion every year or so to all the Fortune 500 and 1000s of other profitable businesses.

In one recent year the wonderful folks at GE earned $10 billion and paid $0 Fed Income Tax. In fact they received a tax refund credit of $400 million.

That's one hell of a stimulus check.

What America's Biggest Companies Pay In Taxes

OK that's 3 year-old data but you get the picture.

This is happening all across corporate America every year. $$$billions profit, no income tax.

Before you get your panties in a knot about some supposed reparation payments to people we kept economically and socially depressed for 300 years, look at where our nation's wealth is going right now. It ain't pretty.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 2:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 10:45 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 110 of 150 (884162)
01-24-2021 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
01-24-2021 2:12 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
I get it. You’re happy to get screwed over so long as the money goes to the rich. It’s when the poor get compensation for historic wrongs you get upset.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 2:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1245
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 111 of 150 (884163)
01-24-2021 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by PaulK
01-24-2021 4:32 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
And as with all right wing populist agendas, there are magic words to delude the masses that the agenda is good for them. And when it comes to giving spectacular wedges of cash to the obscenely rich, those magic words are “trickle down”.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2021 4:32 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 10:30 AM vimesey has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 150 (884165)
01-24-2021 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by vimesey
01-24-2021 5:13 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
I have always had enough common sense to realize that trickle-down economics did not work. My point about the money was that since you couldn't get blood out of a turnip (the top 10%) than neither did raising taxes on an already strapped working class. Its nothing more than all of us digging deeper to pay the bills. For some of us who have wisely saved, we will be able to pay for what is agreed to be necessary to pay and to let the rest ride on long term national debt. My point was also that, politically, we all wont agree on what should be paid.
Wiki writes:

In 1896, Democratic presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan described the concept using the metaphor of a "leak" in his Cross of Gold speech:

There are two ideas of government. There are those who believe that if you just legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous, that their prosperity will leak through on those below. The Democratic idea has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous their prosperity will find its way up and through every class that rests upon it.

Humorist Will Rogers jokingly advised in a column in 1932:

This election was lost four and six years ago, not this year. They (Republicans) didn't start thinking of the old common fellow till just as they started out on the election tour. The money was all appropriated for the top in the hopes that it would trickle down to the needy. Mr. Hoover was an engineer. He knew that water trickles down. Put it uphill and let it go and it will reach the driest little spot. But he didn't know that money trickled up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night, anyhow. But it will at least have passed through the poor fellow's hands. They saved the big banks, but the little ones went up the flue.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by vimesey, posted 01-24-2021 5:13 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by vimesey, posted 01-24-2021 10:41 AM Phat has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1245
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 113 of 150 (884166)
01-24-2021 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
01-24-2021 10:30 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
I'm glad that you see through trickle down - it's a shame that so many people (over here too) think that shovelling containerloads of cash into the pockets of greed-ridden bastards is somehow a good thing for the economy. It isn't.

It is in no way as simple as this when it comes to the detail, but the basic principle is sound - tax the rich more, they can afford it. Spend it on things for the good of society, such as social programs, health care and welfare. That will have the effect of improving things for everyone, without taking too much away from the middle classes.

I'm not saying that you and I should fork out more - I'm saying that it's reasonable that people who wonder whether to buy a fifth billion dollar yacht this year should pay more towards the benefit of a society which has allowed them to buy their first four billion dollar yachts.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 10:30 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 150 (884167)
01-24-2021 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by AZPaul3
01-24-2021 4:26 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
AZPaul3 writes:

Before you get your panties in a knot about some supposed reparation payments to people we kept economically and socially depressed for 300 years, look at where our nation's wealth is going right now. It ain't pretty.

I am no economist, but I do notice certain things. Lets take Covid. In January of 2020, the stock market was riding high and Trump was gloating about all he had supposedly done to make it so. Like the ignoramus that he is, he minimized the severity of Covid until it shut everything down and the markets tankled. I noticed that in 8 short months (in time for elections) the markets rebounded...a fact which did not seem right. The stocks in my late Mothers portfolio regained their value...which was a relief for us personally...we would have had to sell our (her) houses otherwise in order to care for her. But as I said before, something did not look nor feel right about that voodoo recovery in the midst of lowered taxes on the wealthy, increasing global debt and many workers being laid off during the pandemic.

So I searched the numbers and found that one little figure stood out. The M1 (or was it M2?) money supply had quadrupled in those 8 months. Being no economist, I could not grasp the significance of that fact, but my intuition tells me that we (Biden Administration) will see much higher inflation in the near to mid future (within his term) as the numbers readjust globally and pressure eases on China in its evil quest for global supremacy And this is what I haate about the very concepts of globalism and the demise of nationalism. The rich stay the way they always are and were, the US middle(working) class pays an ever increasing bill, our salaries and living standards stagnate, and all of these poor impoverished masses become wealthier. No wonder the Populists were elected 4 years ago. They felt cheated. For them, Nationalism was preferable to Kum Ba Yah, godless humanistic global peace at the expense of our wallet!!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2021 4:26 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 115 of 150 (884168)
01-24-2021 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by vimesey
01-24-2021 10:41 AM


Trickling Down And Paying It Up The Nose
vimesey writes:

I'm not saying that you and I should fork out more - I'm saying that it's reasonable that people who wonder whether to buy a fifth billion dollar yacht this year should pay more towards the benefit of a society which has allowed them to buy their first four billion dollar yachts.

The thing is, vimesey, it seems that we the people have never been able to force the rich to pay their fair share. They always skip out on the party and leave us with the bill. One reason that I despise reparations so much is that you can hand stimulus checks to impoverished people who do not know how to handle money and they will spend it all on rent and food and still never get ahead. In essence, we collectively take on a burden for other people that there is no payoff from. Im not saying to be greedy and heartless, however. Im saying that compassion and altruism depletes ones savings and retirement portfolio, does not help the economy recover, and basically gives a struggling middle class one more reason to complain.

Perhaps the title of this old thread sums it all up.

We can either die with more money or die in the knowledge that we helped feed a few poor people first. For the former, money becomes a false god. For the latter, I suppose Jesus would be happier with us.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by vimesey, posted 01-24-2021 10:41 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 116 of 150 (884169)
01-24-2021 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
01-24-2021 10:56 AM


Re: Trickling Down And Paying It Up The Nose
We did in the 1950s. Since we did it then we know that it can be done.

Other nations do it. Since other nations do it the US should be able to do it as well

But unfortunately a vast percentage of US citizens are still convinced that SOURCE is more important than content, BELIEF more important than evidence and FANTASY more desirable than reality.

As long as that remains true them what got will get.

Them that's got shall have
Them that's not shall lose
So the Bible said and it still is news
Mama may have, Papa may have
But God bless the child that's got his own
That's got his own

Yes, the strong gets more
While the weak ones fade
Empty pockets don't ever make the grade
Mama may have, Papa may have
But God bless the child that's got his own
That's got his own

As long as US citizens subscribe to the Christian Cult of ********* only the rich will benefit. And they will suffer by choice and make all US citizens suffer.

But the rest of the world should do just fine as long as they continue to Throw the God of the CCoI away.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 10:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 150 (884170)
01-24-2021 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
05-03-2011 11:47 AM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
ringo writes:

I think that's why some people equate gods with money. Both can magically get us what we want. False gods can get us what we think we want but "the real God" can get us what we really, really want.

Human wisdom and ingenuity has been able to get us what we think we want. It has also gotten us what we need to survive. It has even exposed many of the gods as fake creations and stories of our own making.
Placating the masses as it were.
The opium of the people.
But the real God can indeed get us what we know we need, even if we don't want to suffer too much to get it.

Perhaps a question could be whether we all need to agree on who the real God actually is. I know that I wont change my vote from Jesus.

If Allah turned out to be the real "God" He would have to smite me or cause me to cease to ever exist, for I would never change my mind.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 05-03-2011 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2021 3:56 PM Phat has responded
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 03-23-2021 12:23 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 118 of 150 (884171)
01-24-2021 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
01-24-2021 3:42 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Phat writes:

If Allah turned out to be the real "God" He would have to smite me or cause me to cease to ever exist, for I would never change my mind.

Quite mad. Quite, quite mad.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 3:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 4:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 150 (884172)
01-24-2021 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Tangle
01-24-2021 3:56 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Quite mad. Quite, quite mad.
Not at all. You grew up Catholic. Most of you guys dont ever get to know Jesus anyway. (of course many of us don't either)
but what you must realize is that once you do actually *know* God, you don't simply switch.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2021 3:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2021 4:17 PM Phat has responded
 Message 121 by jar, posted 01-24-2021 4:37 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 120 of 150 (884173)
01-24-2021 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
01-24-2021 4:00 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Phat writes:

Not at all. You grew up Catholic. Most of you guys dont ever get to know Jesus anyway. (of course many of us don't either)
but what you must realize is that once you do actually *know* God, you don't simply switch.

Millions of Catholics think EXACTLY what you think. I mean EXACTLY.
I did too.

There's nothing special about your delusion Phat, billions more have it with totally different gods.

Some of them actually believe it so badly that they will kill themselves and others for it, while you won't even do what your Jesus tells you to with money.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 01-24-2021 4:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 03-23-2021 1:56 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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