Human Races

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Why? Because our racial terms betray an inherent bias - you can't be white unless you're all white, but all it takes is a little black to be black. How could such a ridiculously inconsistent system have any scientifc validity?

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Does 'culture' exist? Yes or no?

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It isn't really a surprising finding. Consider this: You may be taller than other people. (I am.) In fact your entire family may be taller than the average person where you live, or even your entire block. Does that mean that you're of a different "race"? Not likely. Humans vary, and not one "race" of people varies outside of the normal range of variation for individual humans.

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Hey, you might want to hold on a minute. Just what is 'height' after all? Where does short become tall and tall become short? Is 'height' a scientific concept? Let me guess. Its a 'social construct' right. Wait, now that I think about it, 'height' does not even exist!

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Of course it does. Culture is garbage - it's the effluvium of communities eating, sleeping, screwing, and crapping in proximity. Anytime you put two humans in the same room you'll get culture. Making culture is what humans do.

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Tell me at what precise point one 'culture' becomes another. What objective 'cultural' trait do all members of a given culture share that excludes all others? While you are at it, tell me where 'hot' becomes 'cold' and the 'past' becomes' the 'future'. I am not convinced that 'time' or 'temperature' exist.

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It's the distance in inches or centimeters between the bottom of your feet and the top of your head.

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'Inches' and 'centimeters' do not exist naturally. There are human constructs, not objective natural divisions between categories. Inches and centimeters blend into one another.

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It's easily measured via rulers, tapes, trigonometry (if you're really desparate), or an extremely sensitive barometer.

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All these things are socially constructed measures and measurements.

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What units and devices would you use to measure "blackness"?

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Where does 'yellow' become 'green' or 'red' become 'brown'? Does the visible spectrum exist?

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I don't understand where you're going with this question.

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I would like you to tell me what objective 'cultural' traits that all Westerners share and all non-Westerners do not share. I am not convinced the 'West' exists. Does 'culture' even exist after all?

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"Cold" may be a subjective term but "zero degrees Celcius" is not

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There is no precise point where 'hot' becomes 'cold'. 'Hot' and 'cold' do not exist.

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Clearly temperature exists.

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I am not convinced. Temperature is a category that exists along a continuum. Different degrees of temperature blend into one another. Of course, by your bankrupt epistemology (and epistemology is what we are discussing here), categories that fall across continuums must have no objective validity. Where does the Indian Ocean become the Atlantic Ocean? Where does 'blue' become 'green'?

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"One second" is an objective measurement (within the limits of relativity.) Clearly time exists.

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There is no precise point where the past becomes the present and the present becomes the future. All measurements of time are simply human constructs that create artificial divisions along continuous categories.

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Explain to me how you would measure "blackness" or "asianness" and I'll grant you that race exists.

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We are not discussing the existence of race here. We are discussing epistemology and the nature of categories.

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Sure they do.

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No concept whatever exists naturally; outside of a human context.

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For instance a centimeter is a certain fraction of the distance light travels in one second.

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'Seconds' are artificial divisions on time, as are centimeters.

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Anywhere in the universe I measure, a centimeter is the same length (within the limits of relativity.)

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A 'centimeter' is a human construct to begin with.Where does 'yellow' become 'green' or 'red' become 'brown'? Does the visible spectrum exist?

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Since it's easily and objectively measured in angstroms or cycles per second, itmust be.

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Once more, seconds are artificial divisions of time.

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Anybody who measures a certain wavelength of light will get the same measurement.

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Those 'measurements' were themselves constructed by humans.

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On the other hand, nobody can even agree on how many races there are.

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Restated: On the other hand, nobody can even agree on how many cultures there are. It must follow, therefore, that culture does not exist.

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Is Tiger Woods black? I say he's asian. What's the objective basis for race?

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What is the objective basis for conceptually dividing anything into a category?

I am not feeling so well, come to think about it. I may be getting sick. Wait. At what precise point does sickness become health?

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Why do you think that I think there are some? I don't remember saying that I thought that.

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For the gallery:Gaius Caligula: Does 'culture' exist? Yes or no?crashfrog: Of course it does. Culture is garbage - it's the effluvium of communities eating, sleeping, screwing, and crapping in proximity. Anytime you put two humans in the same room you'll get culture. Making culture is what humans do.Okay, at what precise point does one 'culture' become another?

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I don't understand where this question comes from. Are you trying to change the subject or something?

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I am not changing the subject at all. YOU have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds. I obliged you and reduced the discussion to this level.

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Correct. They're subjective terms, constructed by the user. No two humans can agree on where hot becomes cold.

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Do 'hot' and 'cold' exist? For the last time, yes or no?

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On the other hand, all observers can agree at what point water becomes ice. That's at zero degrees Celsius.

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ROFL what temperature would that be in Farenheit? Wait. Let me guess. Measurements of temperature in both Farenheit and Celsius both exist naturally.

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Ludicrous. Temperature in degrees is a discreet property. 50 degrees doesn't "blend" into 51 or 49 degrees.

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Measurements of temperature rely on categories constructed by humans.

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Ha! Maybe you are, but epistemology isn't the subject of this thread.

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You have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds. Now you are backtracking. What is the problem?

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The subject of the thread is race. I'll thank you to stay on topic, please.

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Do you accept social constructionism? It would seem so. Do you even know what social constructionism is?[This message has been edited by Gaius Caligula, 03-05-2004]

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There's as many cultures as the people who are in cultures think there is.

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ROFL so let me get this straight. There are as many cultures as people who are in cultures think there is, and as you have argued, culture even exists, but race does not exist because know one knows how many races there are?

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Of course, nobody argues that culture is biological, or that culture has any existence outside of human experience.

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Does 'Western culture' exist?

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People don't claim the same about race. People claim that race has real, biological meaning.

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You attacked race as a concept on epistemological grounds.

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At what point do your irrelevant questions become stupid, inane, irritating,and off-topic? Oops, past that point already.

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Your bankrupt epistemology, upon which you have attacked the validity of race as a concept, is not irrelevent to this discussion.

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Again, that doesn't follow from what I said about culture.

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For the gallery, I will refresh your memory:crashfrog: Now, if you meant "cultural perceptions of race exist, so they should be studied," I agreeNow, for the last time, what distinguishes one culture from another?

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Why are you asking again when I already told you that they don't? They're simply subjective terms.

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LMAO so let me get this straight. ‘Subjective terms’ (i.e. hot/cold) do not exist while ‘objective’ terms do? Okay, what distinguishes ‘subjective’ terms from ‘objective’ ones?

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32 degrees. Maybe you failed grade school physics?

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Who is right? Europeans who measure temperature in Celsius or Americans who measure temperature in Farenheit? Keep in mind here that measurements of temperature are categories constructed by humans.

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Constructed, yes, but also objective.

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Measurements do not presuppose consciousness? Highways are not NATURALLY divided up into kilometers or miles.

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Everybody agrees on exactly how much heat energy a degree of temperature represents.

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32 degrees Farenheit or 0 degrees Celsius?

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Can you show me where, prior to your joining the thread, I ever said "epistemology"?

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I never said you mentioned epistemology. You did, however, attack the concept of race of epistemological grounds (as have many others in this thread).

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Here's why I didn't - I'm not a philospher. "Epistemology" is essentially meaningless to me.

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ROFL epistemology is the science devoted to the discovery of the proper methods of acquiring and validating knowledge. Any argument that asserts that ‘race does not exist’ presupposes a theory of knowledge. To say that ‘epistemology is essentially meaningless to me’ is to say that any standard by which knowledge is validated is meaningless. Congrats, you just demolished the foundation of your own argument.

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I don't know.

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LOL

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Do people think it does?

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Certainly. There are also people who believe they have been abducted by space aliens. Who are YOU to tell such individuals they are mistaken? After all, 'epistemology is essentially meaningless to me' right" (ROFL!).[This message has been edited by Gaius Caligula, 03-06-2004]

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I'm criticising conecpts of race because race doesn't have real meaning.

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What is ‘real meaning’? Wait, why would such a question even interest you? After all, ‘epistemology is essentially meaningless for me’.

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It's a socially constructed category with no biological meaning.

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LMAO social constructionists are anti-essentialists who REJECT objective meaning PERIOD. Just what is social constructionism?"There is no single description which would be adequate for all the different kinds of writer whom I shall refer to as social constructionist. This is because, although different writers may share some characteristics with others, there is not anything that they all have in common. What links them all together is a kind of 'family resemblance' (this is what Rosch (1973) meant by 'prototypes' or 'fuzzy sets'). Members of the same family differ in the family characteristics that they share. Mother and daughter may have the typical 'Smith nose', while father and son may have inherited from grandma Smith, who also has the Smith nose, their prominent ears. Cousin George may share the prominent ears, and also, like his aunt Harriet, have the Smith thick, curly hair. There is no one characteristic borne by all members of the Smith family, but there are enough recurrent features shared amongst different family members to identify the people as basically belonging to the same family group. This is the model I shall adopt for social constructionism. There is no one feature which could be said to identify a social constructionist position."Vivien Burr, An Introduction to Social Constructionism (London: Routledge, 1995), p.2There is no one single feature that identifies a social constructionist from someone he is not. By their own argument, social constructionism must not exist! Notice here how it is claimed that social constructionists belong to a 'fuzzy set' type of category. Keep in mind that this is the EXACT same argument made by racialists when describing the concept of race, the very same argument the social constructionists reject when they say race does not exist! What is even more amusing here is comparing social constructionists to a biological extended family in order to justify social constructionism as a valid category.

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That was, after all, the topic of the thread - the biological meaning of race. You're the one who brought up epistemology.

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That is what we are discussing here — ‘meaning’ and ‘knowledge’. Any argument that asserts race exists or does not exist presupposes a theory of knowledge itself.

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No. What's the relevance of it to the biological meaning of race, which is the topic of this thread?

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crashfrog is a little slow so I will refresh his memory:crashfrog: It's [race] a socially constructed category with no biological meaning.Crashfrog here asserts that race is a ‘socially constructed’ category with no biological meaning. Crashfrog then goes on to state he/she does not even know what social constructionism is (LOL!).GG, pwnd

Alrighty. I am new here. Cut me some slack.