RESURRECTION : THE EVIDENCE (+ Apostolic Martyrdom considerations)

The revisionism is coming from YOUR side. Your "checkmate evidence" is a fabrication. Prove me wrogn if you can. Produce evidence that the disciple John was martyred, that he was martyred FOR preaching the Resurrection and that he could save himself by recanting. I know that you have no such evidence and I am sure that you also know that.

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The Bible records a lot of details because the claim is that it is God's eternal word. The claim is verified by the Resurrection.

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So... hang on. The martyrdom of the apostles (one of the details of the Bible) is confirmed by the resurrection. The resurrection is confirmed by the martyrdom of the apostles.Does this not strike you as circular reasoning?

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"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

Well I have found a reference of all the apostles martyrdom:
Signature of God by Grant R. Jeffery. Unfortunately there is little in the way of references other than the Bible. Out of all the Google hits on the subject not one of 10 sites I looked at showed references except to reference Grant Scott's book. This Grant Scott must be privy to the same irrefutable information as WT. And he seems just as reluctant to share his non source evidence as well. Amazon has his book along with The Bible Codes......any takers?

Please cease claiming that this "evidence" exists, AND #$%@& PRESENT IT ALREADY!! How hard can that be if you really have this "evidence" that you continually claim to have yet refuse to identify?Tell you what, two can play at this game.I have irrefutable, undeniable evidence that the story of Jesus and his apostles is one big, elaborate hoax played upon credulous Christians by the Illuminati. I've even shown this evidence to you, so you can't deny it. If you do deny it, you're a dishonest clown, because I've already shown it to you.Sure, you'll just continue to deny it because it supports your irrational theistic faith, but everyone knows the truth. Why are you denying the obvious? The story of Jesus and his Apostles is a fake, a phony, a fabrication.Prove me wrong.

Actually the martyrdom of the apostles isn't a detail of the Bible. There's a definite shortage of martyrdom stories in the NT.There is Stephen's death in Acts but he isn't an apostle. Acts also mentions James' death - although James is another latecomer and not a witness of the Resurrection. Peter's death is hinted at in John.THere doesn't seem to be much else. And as I have stated for John there is not even a late tradition, as there is for other apostles.The claim that all the apostles were martyred is simply not supported by the evidence - and that is why Willowtree doesn't produce evidence for the martyrdom of the apostles.

Willowtree's bluff has once again been called and now he again descends into incoherent ranting and name-calling.Are you genuinely this disconnected or someone trolling in the guise of a creationist?

Willowtree,Gigs up...run for president...and I'll vote for you. Althought the competition is fierce you have shown your expertise at dodging. It's a highly valued skill that you must capitalize on before it's too late! As any middle school science student knows...evidence implies proof. Proof is something that is 1)incontrovertable 2)verifiable 3) validated by others. Your evidence is flim-flam, smoke and mirrors, personal conclusions of loosely gathered circumstantial evidence. You'd be laughed out of court. I'm here to help you so don't take this the wrong way...I admire your hutzbah....but unfortunately you're just going to have to accept this one little fact...until everyone sees it...it's not prooveable. Impossible...don't knock your head against a wall anymore....do ya feel better now?

Read "Sherlocks's Tryal of the Witnesses" by Bishop Sherlock.

You've succeeded in drawing me in to your Sunday School test concerning John.Everyone knows John was the only apostle NOT martyred. Bannished to the isle of Patmos, God revealed the Revelation of John at this location."come up hither" (Rev.4:1) That is John being raptured to heaven, he is also a type of the church who will also be raptured prior to the Great Tribulation.Alexander the Great responsible for the high culture of Greece ?A genocidal maniac who conquered the world at such a young age. He accomplished this infamy because he was demon possessed, and the same demon who possessed him will possess anti-christ.Professor Cyrus Gordon has proven that the high culture of Greece originated from Egypt. When a Pharoah "who knew not Joseph" came to power, this resulted in the first exodus of the shepard kings. They are the fearless and cultured civilization that populated Greece.

Out of context, definetly yes Dan.The problem is a room full of "debaters" who refuse to even recognize all that I have posted since post 1.I know exactly what I have said. Respond to what has been argued or continue to crown yourselves champion.

You are repeating yourself and now so will I. Because the evidence is massive and voluminous, this becomes a simple test. You are either too ignorant to debate OR too dishonest.Because the evidence is massive, it also contradicts. Different sources claim different things about the apostles/disciples. Method of death and locations are widely debated. The common denominator contained through out the evidences is the apostles/disciples lived, and were martyred for reporting the claim of the Resurrection and the gospel. No source exists saying they didn't live or die for the message of the risen Christ, the sources disagree on details but not the central claims.As I said in a previous post, I intended this topic to smoke out the present dishonesty of atheism. Professor Thomas greatly evidences this. I am very dismayed that every atheist in this debate (save one or two) who has chosen to insult my intelligence by completely ignoring what evidence I have posted since post 1, although you are not completely guilty, you have conveniently ignored most major responses of reply and their specific content.If I "lose" the debate for not evidencing the existence of the apostles/disciples then that is better than having to live with myself for caving in to ignorance/dishonesty.Who is responsible for christianizing Antioch, Macedonia, Rome, Britain, Ethiopia, the world ?What would happen if a person were to walk the streets of Mecca or Tehran or Damascus and say " there is a new way of relating to God other than the Koran and it is the gospel of the risen Christ " ?They would be killed in a New York minute.Thats exactly what the apostles/disciples did, and in N.T. times everywhere was just like Mecca, Tehran, or Damascus. If you didn't believe with the majority you were a heretic/infidel and subject to instant death." Caesar is Lord " is what saved you from a trip to the Coliseum.Can anyone produce one single shred of evidence of any kind that indicates the apostles/disciples did not die horribly for the witness of Jesus ?IF they did, then the circumstances of their deaths can only be explained by the message they preached.

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Can anyone produce one single shred of evidence of any kind that indicates the apostles/disciples did not die horribly for the witness of Jesus ?

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Can anyone produce one single shred of evidence of any kind that indicates the apostles/disciples did not whistle "Dixie" at the crucifiction for the witness of Jesus?I surely CAN'T provide one single shred of evidence of any kind that indicates that they did not whistle "Dixie" at the crucifiction.That must mean that they DID whistle "Dixie" at the crucifiction, right?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-11-2004]

No they cannot provide evidence ass such but i could right a book today that could be picked up in 2000 years by someone just like you who will turn to the people of that era and say look i have this book that says there was once a great penguin who healed the wounds of the world and told us to worship the great penguin Pingu... and u that person could say show me evidence that this didnt happen...Your attempting to prove something that was never meant to be proven... People need to have Faith not be shown what is true... that is the key nothing else... some people have it some people dont thats the way it was meant to be and the way it will always be

As far as your claim of Jesus being Good and Wise, I think you'll find that is just a concession from non-Christians based on the reasonably noble words purportedly attributed to Jesus, and is more polite than merely claiming he was a well meaning nutcase, if he existed at all.If Jesus did legitimately rise from brain death, then that is an example of a supernatural event, and all would pay heed. But our evidence of this event (and indeed anything about Jesus's life and existence) is purely derived from hearsay and anecdotal evidence of non eye-witness accounts given in the Bible, and dodgy forged writings of Josephus (as touched up by Eusebius) and a couple of other even less credible sources.The myths surrounding Jesus's life were heavily borrowed existing pagan religions, including virgin birth, miracles, betrayal and crucifixion.I cannot even comprehend what is gained from arguing that the apostles died for their beliefs. Even if this is true (and the accounts are purely sourced from Christian tradition and vary widely) (see Who wrote the New Testament? Making of the Christina Myth Burton Mack 1989), as someone stated above, merely dying for one's beliefs proves absolute nothing. People are dying for their very varied beliefs today and have been dying for them all of human history. This can't possibly make them all true.Even without providing evidence of your claims, Willowtree, your checkmate evidence is just piffle. Larry Thomas is a twit, if your little anecdote is true at all.But nevertheless how about complying with the above requests and supply us with one primary and contemporary source which details the death of any of the apostles.Willow writes

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Can anyone produce one single shred of evidence of any kind that indicates the apostles/disciples did not die horribly for the witness of Jesus ?

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I can actually find precious little about the demise of these "most famous men" outside of Christian apologetics and traditions, but someone above has helped you out in the thread above. In 70 CE, when Mark was writing his Gospel, Christians were suffering an intense persecution because Nero was scapegoating them for the Roman fire. These people were killed irregardless of whether they renegged their beliefs or not. At this time they could have screamed that Ceaser was God all they wanted and it would not have made any difference. The sincereity of their convictions were not an issue.I'd start being a little bit more suspicious about the teachings of a reputedly intelligent man who using the Christian faith to line his personal coffers.

Thanks Reef, but the N.T. says God will give ONE sign and that sign is the sign of the prophet Jonah. Yes, faith is important, but God doesn't expect faith to be based on fiction - only fact, the fact of the Resurrection.