Points on abortion and the crutch of supporters

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No they are not. See how easy that is?

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Unfortunately this isn't easy. Can you please explain why "they are not"?

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If you have evidence that your SPECIFIC METAPHYSICAL POSITION is better than mine, then I would like to see it.

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When did blatant truth become a metaphysical position?I know I've said this to death but here it goes again:Why would a doctor perform an abortion on something that isn't going to become a baby? What would be the need of that procedure?

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Since you cannot know what the future holds, then you are the one defining optimism/pessimism for someone else. It is not giving the "child" the benefit of the doubt, it is depriving a 100% sentient being the benefit of the doubt of being intelligent enough to make her own choices regarding her own life and that of her offspring.

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You are telling someone you know what reality is (despite being unable to answer critical questions to your "theory" of life), and so what she believes is completely wrong and cannot make judgements based on those beliefs.

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Please forgive me holmes. I know I am judging her on the belief that murder is wrong. I'm also sorry if this sounds harsh. I'm sorry you disagree. I'm sorry there is no other definition to use to describe such a procedure. There is no other belief in this besides respect for human life. If letting someone decide upon murder is what is needed for the mother that needs choice, then that is fine I guess, all depending on your point of view.Regarding most of your other post:Why would a doctor perform an abortion on something that isn't going to become a baby? What would be the need of that procedure?

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Given your answer you can no longer make arguments along the lines that humans might kill Jesus when they perform abortions.

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I was wrong here

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While I sympathize that you have a strong gut reaction to this topic, and so want it to be easy to make arguments, it is not easy at all. This is doubly true when your position requires a SPECIFIC METAPHYSICAL POSITION, a religious one at that, which not everyone shares, and the government is bound from imposing on others.

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I don't know why you corner me into this idea that my insentive for this was religious. Anyone with a respect for life could agree. I know it is easier for me to be arguing for "my heavenly Father" or for me to feel I'm feeling this way because this is what God wants. Accuse me, assume, however you want to tear down someone who is "anti abortion" assuming they are religious.peace[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-22-2004]

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Then you are agreeing that it's the woman's choice? It's her convictions that matter and no one else's?

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So the woman is allowed to be Death?

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The removal of tissue from a woman's uterus isn't always called an abortion and it isn't always performed on something that MIGHT become a baby.

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I'm saying an abortion is performed when their is a future baby inside a woman right?

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-chris

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Messinjah

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lol Was that typo made on purpose?

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please explain where along in gesteation fertilized egg becomes a person.
Or, do you equate fertilized eggs with persons?

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"Why would a doctor perform an abortion on something that isn't going to become a baby? What would be the need of that procedure?"When the pregnant mother-to-be is able to have an abortion performed.-peace

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So the government is allowed to force a woman to incubate a fetus?

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Let's play a little game I like to call repetition.So the woman is allowed to be Death?Her governing choices decide life or death for the baby. For life or choice? Give me liberty or give me death! How ironic.

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So, since most "future babies" do not lead to a pregnancy and are flushed out of the body during menstruation, do you suggest colletion and examination of all menstrual fluid just in case there is a "future baby" in there?

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Let me rephrase that. It's hard to compile words together when one likes to distort them. When there is a pregnancy. When the abortion can be performed. Like a broken record. I'm getting tired of these questions that I've already answered.

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IUD

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nope.-peace[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-26-2004]

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-chris

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Her choiced also decide, in some cases, life or death for herself, as well.

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In some cases, which I said acceptions should be made for.

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-chris

wait[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 04-08-2004]

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-chris

I'm not sure when it would become a human person. Some say at conception but I dunno. Some say because a distinct DNAcode is formed that doesn't change.Schraf can you explain why at conception it wouldn't be a human.-peace

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http://womensissues.about.com/...stats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

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Abortion Statistics - U.S.
1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Click here to see the approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year from 1973-1996.
88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy
47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions
43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old

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Abortion Statistics - Decision to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby<
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career
7.9% of women want no (more) children
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health

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How do you feel about these statistics Schraf?
Specifically:3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal healthI feel by you using rape/incest and potential death of the pregnant woman as main points in your argument (strawmen?) it is dishonest to not post percents on these incidents. So they are in fact very rare.Unless you can disprove these statistics some how...?All of these statistics show a darker side to the issue don't they.Most abortions are for selfish reasons are they not?
This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 05-11-2004 09:33 PMThis message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 05-11-2004 09:39 PM

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-chris

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How do you propose to sort the rape/incest abortions from the other abortions, like the ones were rape or incest are only claimed?

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What if the rape isn't reported, as so many rapes aren't?

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If you ban all abortions, then you ban the rape/incest ones, no matter how few abortions those represent. And I can't think of any way to ascertain if a pregnancy was the result of rape or consensual sex.

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Laws can have clauses, exceptions. You validate the claim of the person that says their pregnant because of a family member. What can you do about rapes that arent reported?

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Moreover, there's always - in every case - a risk to the health of the mother in pregnancy. Every single pregnancy is a risk to the mother. It's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend that pregnancy isn't always risky.

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Yes it's risky but to the point of fatality is rare.

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-chris

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And how do you propose to make sure no one's taking advantage of those exceptions? How do you investigate the claim that a pregnancy was the result of rape when rape is the most underreported crime?

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If a law was passed like the one I alluded to with the exceptions, it could be easy. The pregnant woman applies for an abortion, "the cells" are tested for DNA of the family member, if it is validated then she can have an abortion.In the case of rape, (which I'm not even sure there should be an abortion) she lists the people she has had sex with within the time period she got pregnant, they validate that claim. they check "the cells" for those people's DNA then the parent/guardian(s) validates if she has been raped and she's able to get an abortion. This can definitely be abused. However there is a less chance of abortion abuse, pregnant women that were responsible for their own pregnancy.With incest this can be foolproof, with rape it can never be, relying on word of mouth more, and one could abuse it.

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The point is, though, that its the mother that has to take the risk, and only she can determine if she's willing to accept that level of risk or not. You don't have any place to tell a woman what risks she has to accept or not.

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Is giving something life worth the risk?

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-porcelain

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Chris, who controls a woman's body?

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lol

I'll give you the satisfactory of taking the bait.A woman control's a womans body, furthermore a person controls his or her body. As far as I know. I know I control mine so I'm assuming it's the same with everyone else.

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-porcelain

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So, who's decision should it be whether or not she carries a preganancy to term?

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Exactly my point.
The decision is hers, she has the power to give life or take it away. It's her responsibility and hers alone.

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-porcelain

.This message has been edited by CHRIS PORTEUS jr, 09-06-2004 02:23 PM

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-porcelain

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Scratch the surface of any anti-abortion proponent, and you uncover someone who believes that no women having extra-marital sex, or even rape victims impregnated by their violators, go unpunished.

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THere is an excuse for victims, they shouldn't have to be punished for the sins of the rapist.For those that aren't victims,The only one that gets punished is the baby of the future, the life a baby never got to have.Proponents of abortion, If you scratch the surface you uncover someone that believes life is a privilege not a right.

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-porcelain