Points on abortion and the crutch of supporters

Hi,
I honestly tried to go to sleep but I couldn't I felt so angry.Why Abortion should be supported (supposed reasons):1. Rape victims.Do two wrongs make a right?It's horrible that you were raped and it isn't wrong fault you're pregnant but is it ok to essentially kill a baby even though you didn't put your pregnancy on yourself?2. If it is your fault. (by unprotected sex)Isn't it your responsibility to have the child and at least give it to an adoption agency? Reminder: If you don't it will die from murder.3. If you have the baby you will dieThis is where it is your choice to have the baby or not. This reason is the crutch of pro-choice enthusiasts. This is a very rare occurence and is used to make murder look nice and the last resort type thing. I have a friend that says she is pro-choice. The only reason why she is pro-choice is because of this rare occurence. Why support something that is so much more broad than that.If you are pro-choice you support all of these reasons, and even perhaps the more inhumane atrocities that are being committed outside of this country. Although you can't get more inhumane, just more gory, to the point where you can see the baby so it makes you feel like you're are ordering murder. If they're just cells than you don't feel this way. It's not what the cells are, it's what the cells will become. You who support abortion are killing off future youth, maybe future geniuses who can better our world. But it shouldn't matter what they become either, you don't know anyway. All you know and all you need to know is that babies are dying by murder and you are partly if not all to blame.What will you say to this?They're just cells not a baby.What will those cells become? What are you denying those cells and what are you denying what is the future of those cells of?I am frustrated by how anyone can not see abortion as cold-blooded killing. If you don't see it as such please respond.
Most of the time when people say "you are blinded from the truth!" it isn't absolutely true, if not at all but if you think abortion is morally sound and ethical, if abortion isn't murder, death and killing another human being to become (at the least) then you truly are blinded and it's so tragic. It just doesn't make sense to me how someone could feel that way. Lord help mankind!

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-chris

Ok, I was wrong to say cells, how about whatevers inside the woman, when she has an option for a legal abortion. At the point where there is enough clarity to define what it is or what it will become, so it gives her the option of abortion.Also I think Mrhambre's point on the baby will die in pain, will not live long and will be deformed, then I think you should have a choice there too.I apologize for saying cells, seeing there's no way to tell what those cells will become.

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-chris

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There's nothing cold-blooded about it. It's a medical procedure with vast emotional impact for the mother.

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Who among us can know the future? Let's talk about what is. What is is a group of cells with nothing resembling humanity. If you think a few cells are equivalent to a person, would you mind if I took a few of your cells and destroyed the rest of you? Surely that's not murder if a few cells are equivalent to a person?

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Or maybe there's a little more to a human than a few cells?

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But in the abortion if they're just a group of cells why are they being eliminated? Do you think it may be that those cells would become something soon? Why would the procedure of abortion be done if there are just cells there. It's normal to have cells in your body. There must be something special about that group of cells and the doctor can tell she's pregnant soo?

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-chris

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Is it "right" to force a woman to incubate a child?

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Why does the fetus' rights trump those of the woman's?

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I'm wondering if you have ever read "To Kill A Mockingbird".
Atticus says one way or another "I'm all for women's rights but not at the cost of another man's life."The woman is Mayella and the fetus is Tom Robinson.Think about that one for a little while.That pretty much takes care of your entire argument. I think you should cool down now.Oh, and are you by any chance part of the feminist movement?cya around

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-chris

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Messenjah, have you ever laid or sat there and listened to your wifes and daughters (or sons) heartbeats and realized that you might have to pick one over the other. Until you have do not presume to preach to me or anyone else about the morality of that third reason. If the lifers had their way even that medical choice would not be an option. Just to underscore my point, I spent a night listening to those heartbeats, both of them skipping beats and in distress, and had to face that choice. I am fortunate and did not have to make it at the end due to the skill of the attending physician, but I know others who were not that fortunate.

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That it is a rare occurence is beside the point, I said you should have choice there. Reading posts more carefully can fix this.[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-17-2004]

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You mean, is she committed to putting into practice the idea that women deserve all the same rights and privleges men enjoy?

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Women deserve equal rights.
They have the power of giving life-with great power comes great responsibility-"Spiderman"

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-chris

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sorry I don't see the connection .... The Book is about racial discrimination...

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But wasn't it partly because of women's rights that Robinson had to die?

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-chris

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Hardly! You didn't answer a single one of my specific questions! However, I have also presented you with some of the gray areas and thorny issues which you apparently do not wish to address. I think it's actually you who hasn't really thought through the implications of your position. I have repeated the bits of my message that you ignored.

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Most of your posts are confusing, blowing fire in all directions. lol Apparently I am not hiding from anything you say.

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You have a very black and white notion of this issue and that is typical of someone your age.

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Oh so because of my age I'm lower huh? Can't see like you? *cough*hypocrite*cough* What a stereotype.I can see what you do here. Looks like you're to busy spouting equal rights for women (which they are) that you miss the innocent deaths. The blood's not on my hands...

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Of course...

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"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people."

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If they have the power to take lives then they are more than that.

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Is it "right" to force a woman to incubate a child?
Why does the fetus' rights trump those of the woman's?

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Is it OK to force a woman to incubate a fetus, complete with all of the health risks, including death and future infertility?

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Also, what about young girls who are impregnated by rapists, such as relatives? Do you feel OK with forcing them to incubate the fetus?

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What rights? The fetus doesn't have any rights if you're too busy "trumping" on it. The woman is the only one with rights, actually the woman is treated so much higher than the fetus it's allowed to order its death. So I ask what rights?We learn as children two wrongs don't make a right, parents hope that this value holds true in their children. Obviously you lost it. If the woman is raped does she have the right to kill someone? I mean the rapist didn't even kill anyone.

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Why? Why is it OK to force women to become incubators in some cases, taking away her right to control her own body, but in this caase it isn't OK?
Can you please explain when a fertilized egg becomes human, and is therefore "murderable"?

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Because it's inappropriate to dictate to individual women what should be a private matter between her, her family and her doctor.

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"Incubators"? Is that what you're calling pregnant women now? Anything to distort the truth eh?A zygote is "murderable" when it is clearly something that will be a baby and she knows it. When the mafia kills it's private, just between them and the victim, and they hide the body so they hope noone will know if the procedure is done in secret right?Hey, you can keep your pregnancy to yourself but if your killing someone and burying the evidence, there is a cover up.

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Just because I support every woman's right to control what happens to her own body, it does not follow that I support infantacide, for instance.

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What is the difference between "infantacide" and abortion? One is only done at a later stage in life, right?

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So, I assume then that you wish to control what happens to every single egg and every single sperm, because these are the cells that have the potential to create human life.
Also, are you going to want to examine all of the menstrual fluid of women for all of the fertilized eggs that don't implant themselves in the uterus? Most fertilized eggs end up this way, but according to you, they are potential human life and should be saved, right?

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This is a mistake on my part, I have since then redefined when a human's a human, as noted in the sentences above.

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Your argument might be more powerful if there were no starving children living in poverty on this planet, but I think it's much more important to focus on making the lives of the destitute and damaged children who are already here better rather than trying to add more to the tolls.

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So you won't give the person a chance to live? You and noone else has that right. Noone can deny life. How do you know that these aborted children would have starved. Isn't it better to even give the ones who will starve a chance? Yet you can't tell the future so that whole assumption isn't fair.

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So are religions and governments which make birth control and family planning services difficult to get, and also actively resist the empowerment of women to be the social and sexual equal of men.

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Trying to put the blame on someone else is understandable. It's in our nature. But you are also responsible. Trying to hide behind others doesn't work. You are only associating yourself with them more, whether you realize it or not.

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The truth is, it's much easier to lay blame after the fact instead of working to prevent it in the first place.

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THE IRONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By you supporting it you are only helping to cause more deaths. I am working to prevent it, you are farther off from helping to prevent it, sadly, more than you will ever know.[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-17-2004][This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-17-2004]

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-chris

Oh sorry holmes, as you can see there are a few posts to respond to I guess I missed yours. Being for choice in one rare instance does not make me pro choice, especially for what that title entails[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-17-2004]

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-chris

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In light of this, isn't the best way to handle the situation to allow each person to make up their own mind regarding the metaphysics of life and reproduction and treat their own situation accordingly?

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Of course, that is if murder was morally ok.

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With just those two reasons alone, even if rare, if abortion is outlawed then they will have no option in those cases.

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Exceptions can and should be made for such rare cases.

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But let us go further. What about a child that will be born into a situation that is not good for it. For example a child born into poverty, especially if the parent had been raped and so may be psychologically hostile to the child. You say the parent should just give it up for adoption. Is this "adoption" a particular place that takes all babies and treats them well? Why couldn't a parent decide, much like if their child would be born deformed, that they would not want their child born into a situation that they themselves consider needless suffering?

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As you know you can no predict the future. All children can overcome deformity? Couldn't they be able to overcome such paralysis. Shouldn't the child be given the most optimistic approach?

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And this is getting closer to the real point, is it not their own child? Is it not an extension of themselves borne from THEIR OWN REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS? Who are they reproducing? Themselves. An embryo is not some divinely manufactured entity separate from its host, but a product of an organism that is reproducing itself in a new form. Why should a reproducer not have control over that which it is reproducing?

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Some people even view their offspring as a literal continuation of their own soul or existence. Do these people not have a right to decide into what conditions their soul or existence enters? Perhaps abortion is as much mercy for themselves as it is for a potential child. They are seeking only the best conditions for their child's and so their own future.

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I do not see the advantage of encouraging people to have children that at their outset are not desired to finish gestation, even if they may get adopted at some later date. Especially in a world where population is an issue, this seems sort of an odd fantasy solution.

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That's like saying its america's army shouldn't it be allowed to attack and murder billions? Yes it is a fantasy, but fantasies can become reality.

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How does forced childbearing REALLY help the potential child or the already existing parent? I understand it makes busybodies feel better about their ability to control other people's choices, but ultimately you are simply telling the parent they must shoot dice with their own life in order to guarantee some dice shoot for their kid's life. It is not like the kid is guaranteed anything in their life besides death, not even love.

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Be more optimistic. Noone can tell the future, you know?Anti:I don't know the answers to these questions, they are obviously unfair, noone can know God and his processes in those ways?The 5th one though...How can God control a choice? We are the only ones that can help stop this. Jesus would never be born again right? So I don't really see the point in that.[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-17-2004]

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-chris

I gotta go, be back to respond.

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Imagine vegans get some sort of majority and decide that killing animals for food is murder. Do you believe they should be able to impose their view on you? How about a morality group imposing their definition that even the thought of murder is synonymous with murder and so violent video game players are serial killers?

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They're people! Opinions can be held if people should die or not but what is the justification of a death of a child. Or something that will with out a doubt become a person.

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Do you really believe the government should be forcing you to approach your life decisions according to what the majority wants?

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No, you should be approaching your decisions knowing what is right and wrong. Does anyone let a serial killer murder because that's one of his life decisions?

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Who is to say choosing not to have a child is the pessimistic choice? No one can tell the future. That is the whole point. By forcing a woman to make a specific choice you are saying the majority has some inkling about reality and the future.

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My way, you give the child the benefit of the doubt. Your way, he dies no matter what. Would he have survived? Maybe.

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But you do make a point. No one knows the future. They also do not know what a fetus is. Why is it the place of government to make this determination for others, when there are NO objective standards to differentiate the two?

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If they don't know how can they perform the abortion?

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Actually they are extremely fair questions

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You're asking me to read God's mind and I'm not the one who knows if the baby is going to die or not.

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So if God wants to have Jesus come back, why on earth would he allow people to thwart his plan?

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I think he would choose someone like Mary.

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Do you really believe people could stop your God?

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Stop him from what? Such a situation would never exist. I feel some of your hypothetical questions are useless.[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-18-2004]

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-chris

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Chris, the issues comes down to the fact that you haven't proven that a fetus or embryo is a full human with human rights, and you haven't proven that abortion is murder. You have nothing in your corner except your religious convictions that life begins at conception. Why does your conviction trump mine that life begins at viability, or Shraf's, or the Christian next door that is pro-choice, or the SCOTUS.

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The fact is why would a doctor perform an abortion on something that isn't going to become a baby? What would be the need of that procedure?[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-18-2004]

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-chris

I'll respond later.

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Why does your conviction trump mine?

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uhhh? It doesn't. Right?

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What is a person?

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Why would a doctor perform an abortion on something that isn't going to become a baby? What would be the need of that procedure?[This message has been edited by messenjaH of oNe, 03-22-2004]

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-chris