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Author | Topic: 2/3rds of Americans want creationism taught. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
According to the NYTs, 2/3rds of Americans believe creationism should be taught along-side ToE.
In a finding that is likely to intensify the debate over what to teach students about the origins of life, a poll released yesterday found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public schools. Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey - The New York Times We live in a democratic republic, and moreover parents should have a say in the schools they and the public pay for, in educating their children. If 2/3s of the public want a topic presented alongside evolution, then it's only going to create backlash if those wishes are ignored. IMO, present the factual arguments. Education is not a bad thing. If ToE is so superiour to creationism and ID, then it will be apparent, and if not, then truth is served. On a secondary note, considering by law, evolution is the only theory taught, and that the vast majority of media pumps pro-evo messages and concepts out contiually, I think evos ought to consider that just maybe the reason so many think creationism has some validity is not due to ignorance, blind faith, etc,...but that many of these people are like me, and once believed ToE was unquestionably true, but discovering the many overstatements we were taught to instill that faith in ToE, many of us lost faith, not because of ignorance, but due to more education. In other words, IDers and creationists in general have very little grant money, influence, authority, etc,...and 2/3rds of Americans are not hard-core Bible thumpers. There's a reason creationist criticisms of evolution have been effective, and a big part of it is the criticisms have merit. This message has been edited by randman, 08-31-2005 01:49 AM
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Democracy does not determine what is good science.
I don't have any problem with creationism being taught, but not in science classes. Put it in a class on comparative religions class, or in a class on ancient myths, or in a class on contemporary controversies. This is a manufactured controversy. It's not as if students can't learn about creationism at home or at their churches.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
There are a lot of questions to be raised.
Why should we misinform children and hurt their education ? DO the people polled even realise that this is what they are asking for ? What "factual" arguments belong in school classes and why ? Schools are for teaching the basic underpinnings of a subject, not for discussing every fringe idea. If creationism and ID are so short of money why do they have so much to spend on PR activities ? Why say that "by law, evolution is the only theory taught" when you know that there is no law mandating that evolution alone should be taught. Evolution succeeded on its scientific merits and it is currently the only theory that DESERVES to be taught. If ID and creationism have scientific merit why are they trying to use political means to circumvent the scientific process ? And why not consider the possibility that Creationism and ID are the foreces they are in the US because of the PR and propaganda campaing of crewationist organisations and churches ? In other societies where the same information and education is available creationism and ID have far less of a hold. This message has been edited by PaulK, 08-31-2005 02:26 AM
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
This is a manufactured controversy. Sometimes you gotta take a step back and take stock of things. I don't believe 2/3rds of Americans are mere dupes. Sorry, but the old there is no issue isn't holding. You want to say it's a manufactured controversy, fine, but it's over in terms of public opinion. The evolutionists lost. It's only going to exacerbate matters if evos try to stop the will of the public being expressed in "their own schools."
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Why should we misinform children and hurt their education ? DO the people polled even realise that this is what they are asking for ?
So allowing an alternative theory or criticisms of ToE to be presented is "misinforming them"? It just amazes me that you can say that with a straight face. Education is about presenting data and arguments, teaching kids to think for themselves, not indoctrination. Teaching more views on the topic is not misinformning them, but educating them more fully to the topic at hand.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Pretending that ID or creationism offered a serious scientific challenge to evolution would be misinforming the children.
As I say, science education is for dealing with the basics, not for promoting fringe ideas that happen to be popular with the general public.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
You want to say it's a manufactured controversy, fine, but it's over in terms of public opinion. The evolutionists lost. He's right. Just like science lost the debate about the Earth being round instead of flat, and that the universe doesn't revolve around the Earth, and any number of other issues where science has been on the side of data no matter what "public opinion" wants to believe.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Let me ask you this Randman,
Would you have them teach Biblical Creation? Would they also teach Navajo Creationism? Cherokee? Tibetan? Hindu? Babylonian? Egyptian? What's the criteria for teaching these theories? Clearly, it's not based on the data.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
I read the article you linked.
There's sample pool on the E v C question was 2000 people. That's just silly small. 40 people per state dictating education - come on. And where were these people located, which states? Cities vs rural? Are these people educated vs uneducated? Employed vs home to answer the phone when they survey taker called? The article also didn't give an example of the questions used. The wording of the question can have serious effects on the outcome of the survey for example: "Do you think that creationist beliefs should be taught in the science classroom?" versus "Do you think that alternative theories of evolution should be given equal time in the classroom?" Essentially the same question, but I'd expect different numbers from either one. I think the numbers in the survey are highly suspect, but even if the survey was completely fair, and the numbers one hundred percent accurate, I'd still object to this. Do you want Prayer Healing taught in Medical school? If you have a heart attack, which doctor do you want to see? Should we have David Blane come teach teleportation and levitation in physics class? Lots of people believe he can do that? Science is science. It adheres to a method through which it strives to explain observations. It is reviewable, and peer tested. Creationism is not a science. There is no mechanism for peer testing. There's no observable experimentation. It doesn't belong in the classroom.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Yea, I always knew the NYTs was a creationist hotbed willing to print creationist garbage. No credibility whatsoever.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Personally, I'd just like them to teach all the facts, data, and arguments not supportive of ToE, and force the correction of the vast overstatements used to indoctrinate kids into accepting ToE.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Yea, I always knew the NYTs was a creationist hotbed willing to print creationist garbage. No credibility whatsoever. Well, the newspaper was reporting on the story. They weren't saying that the poll was good or bad, just that it was. That's their job. I don't have any doubt that the information in the article is correct. I just doubt that the method of obtaining the information used by the pollers (not the NYT's writers btw) was sufficient for their claims that it represented the true feelings of the public as a whole.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Personally, I'd just like them to teach all the facts, data, and arguments not supportive of ToE, The problem is this. There are arguments not supportive of ToE, you've brought many of them up. There are, however, no facts or data to support those arguments. When asked to present the facts or data, the response is always - "Trust in God" or "The Devil is trying to trick you", etc. If you want to jump up and down and say, "Show me proof." Then discount anything we suggest. Time to turn it around. Show us proof. Prove, using the data, that no species ever changed. Prove, using the data, that there was a Great Flood, and that magically killed only the dinosaurs first, including the aquatic ones, before moving on to other life forms. Prove, using the data, that in 4000 years, every single race on Earth descended from the incestuous sexual relations of Noah and his offspring, that the spread rapidly across the world, completely forgot their history, culture, religion, language and (without changing) became the Chinese, the Africans, the Meso-Americans, Aboriginies, Inuit, etc. You want to play in our playground, you have to play by our rules. We aren't going around asking there to be laws mandating that we be allowed to teach Evolution in your Temples. This message has been edited by Nuggin, 08-31-2005 03:41 AM
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
randman,
I don't believe 2/3rds of Americans are mere dupes. I do.
IMO, present the factual arguments. Education is not a bad thing. If ToE is so superiour to creationism and ID, then it will be apparent, and if not, then truth is served. The "truth" has already been served. The earth is ~4.5 billion years old, not 6,000. As per the EVIDENCE. Noah's flood not only lacks global evidence, but there is contradsictory evidence too. Evolution has many lines of multidisciplinary evidence, creation has none. That's why 2/3rds of the US are dupes, if your figures are to be believed. They're stupid enough to ignore the fact that they have no evidence in their favour, falsifying evidence against them, & their opponents have evidence in support of their position, & they STILL want creationism taught. It's religion, not science. Teach it by all means, but 2/3rds of Americans are going to have to go to sunday school. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 505 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Pardon me for interrupting, but doesn't this topic belong in the Ed and crea/evo forum?
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