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Author Topic:   The legalization of drugs
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 111 (363294)
11-11-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 9:08 PM


Well, jar's position has not been posted yet.
People without any addiction to drugs would claim as though they do and sell it to those who are addicts.
How do you sell drugs to someone who can get them for free from the local clinic? What incentive is there to pay for something that is available free?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:08 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:27 PM jar has replied
 Message 34 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 8:25 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 111 (363300)
11-11-2006 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 9:27 PM


Re: Well, jar's position has not been posted yet.
As I already stated, when the actual users run out of their supply, the people claiming to do drugs will have a surplus. If anyone knows anything about addiction its that tolerance builds and it takes more and more drugs to produce the same fix. The people acting as though they do drugs will have an adundance and sell that to the actual users. As we already know, a true junky will do anything for a fix. You haven't eliminated the black market, you just feed it tax dollars and have it fester.
Just how does this happen? All that anyone needs to do is stop by the neighborhood clinic to get whatever they want.
Sorry but your idea is just silly. Another strawman.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by riVeRraT, posted 11-14-2006 10:27 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 111 (363366)
11-12-2006 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Silent H
11-12-2006 8:25 AM


Re: Well, jar's position has not been posted yet.
Actually, haven't you posted your position before in earlier threads?
Yes but it has not been posted in this thread.
Apparently you've never seen an addict.
And you base that on?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 8:25 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 1:22 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 111 (363393)
11-12-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Silent H
11-12-2006 1:22 PM


Re: Well, jar's position has not been posted yet.
You are, of course, free to assume anything you want. Since there was nothing else in your post other than the joke, a statement which I corrected and a strawman argument, I saw nothing else to respond to.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 1:22 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 2:58 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 111 (363405)
11-12-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 4:12 PM


A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
Please understand that what I present here is only part of what was discussed, a short summary of a discussion that extended over several hours.
It seems that there are a lot of threads started by others here at EvC explaining what it is I think.
Perhaps one day there will even be one that is close to accurate.
Let me try to explain my position on this. Please excuse the length of this post and if possible, read all of it.
For many decades, we have been, as a Nation, pushing and funding something called "The War on Drugs." So far there are absolutely NO indications of any success. Drugs are plentiful and ubiquitous as are users, pushers and crime. Our prisons are filled with people convicted on drug related charges, our police forces spending too great a portion of their time and resources trying to deal with the problem, our court systems overwhelmed dealing with those charged.
Continuing to do the same things over and over while expecting different results is simply foolish. We need to try something different.
The cost of the drug problem in the US involves several factors.
  • higher crime rates resulting from territorial distribution disputes.
  • higher crime rates as users look for funding to support their habits.
  • higher crime rates as the drug suppliers try to influence the legal system through bribes, coercion and intimidation.
  • lost productivity.
  • increased taxes to support policing, court systems and prisons.
To me, it seems the first question to ask is "Can we reduce the cost of the drug problem in the US?"
I believe that the answer is a resounding "Yes!"
What I would like to do is first describe what I believe is a possible solution.
I think we need to address the biggest issue first. If we can find a way to take profits out of drugs, so that there is no way to make any money selling drugs, the all of the criminals involved will be forced out. They cannot compete when there is too small a profit margin.
How can that be done?
Simple. Give the drugs away for free.
If all of the drugs now sold were available at no cost, then the drug lords and cartels would be put out of business immediately.
How could that be done?
First you must understand that the actual manufacturing costs of drugs is almost nothing. Many, such as Marijuana and Opium Poppies and others that are plant based could be grown as cash crops in the US. Others are byproducts of current pharmaceutical manufacturing.
How would the drugs be distributed?
The drugs should be distributed free of charge at local neighborhood health clinics where health care, counseling, and treatment would also be available.
What other sources of revenue would help pay the cost of manufacturing and distributing the drugs?
The major cost today of the War on Drugs is the expenses we currently pay for with our taxes. Those taxes pay for the extra police and equipment, the costs of the courts system (public defenders, judges, bailiffs, clerks of courts, buildings, janitorial staff, prosecuting attorneys and for the housing/incarceration system.
Since a large percentage of those costs are devoted to things that would no longer be illegal, those funds could be redirected to the manufacturing, distribution, and most of all treatment, counseling, education and health care for those addicted to drugs.
Why make the distribution through the neighborhood clinics?
By using neighborhood clinics or doctors offices as points of distribution, you bring the addicts regularly into an environment where their health and changing life conditions can be noted. Other side effects of drugs can be addressed and where possible treated.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 4:12 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 3:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 44 by Modulous, posted 11-12-2006 3:40 PM jar has replied
 Message 66 by tudwell, posted 11-12-2006 10:39 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 111 (363416)
11-12-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Silent H
11-12-2006 3:19 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
With legalization, and subsidy, how will they be cash crops?
They would be cash crops, just like tobacco, because today the American farmer is prohibited from growing them.
1) How widespread/numerous are these clinics, as well as their general opening times?
No way near available enough. The US Health Care system sucks, big time.
2) Who is available to get drugs from these clinics?
I would suggest anyone.
3) How much is available for a person?
I would suggest just about any amount. But that is a minor detail to be worked out.
4) Are they able to take the drugs outside of the clinic?
I would hope they would be allowed to take them away.
5) What happens for invalids/housebound?
In these cases I would suggest distribution through the Home Health Care industry.
Also, what prevents organized crime from beginning a reverse trade, from the US to the rest of the world, using "stolen" free product as their source? As long as other nations have it as illegal, a market will exist.
NMP. Simply another strawman.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 3:19 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 3:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 111 (363422)
11-12-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Modulous
11-12-2006 3:40 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
The actual costs of drugs in the US today are made up of several factors. Only one of those is the actual cost of the product. The other costs are the higher transportation costs (since it is illegal and the conventional systems cannot be used), set asides to cover loss in transit (cops find some, confiscate it and burn it, costs for protecting the drugs during shipment as well as bribes to authorities here, at the point of origin and while in transit.
All of the additional overhead mentioned above disappear when we are speaking of a legal commercial product.
The crops grown would have to be suitable - if government weed was crappy and horrid, the black market would still thrive as people would be happy to pay money for better quality product.
Absolutely true. And for the program to be effective the quality of the product, just as with oranges or bubble gum, would have to be satisfactory.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Modulous, posted 11-12-2006 3:40 PM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 3:58 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 111 (363423)
11-12-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Silent H
11-12-2006 3:48 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
Sorry I see it as just a strawman. Carry on if you wish.
Then what would prevent people from nations that have drugs as illegal, or don't have as big a distribution system, from getting free drugs and then selling them to others outside the US?
As I said, Not My Problem and just a strawman. If drugs are illegal in their area then that is that nations problem, not ours.
As to the US Health Care system, hell yes it needs to improve. However it costs considerably less to treat addicts than to incarcerate them. Let's redirect what we spend now on incarceration towards addressing the Health Care issue.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 3:48 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 4:09 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 111 (363425)
11-12-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Silent H
11-12-2006 3:58 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
Are the federal programs supposed to compete with these independent operations as they arise? How will this be done?
I would hope that the Federal system would simply subsume the independents.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 3:58 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 4:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 111 (363432)
11-12-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Silent H
11-12-2006 4:09 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
Nope.
I am dealing with the US drug problem. Period.
What effect it has on anything other than the US is a strawman.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 4:09 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Modulous, posted 11-12-2006 5:00 PM jar has replied
 Message 58 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 7:23 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 111 (363433)
11-12-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Silent H
11-12-2006 4:12 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
Just bring them in. They produce a product? Buy it. Period.
This is no different than many other markets, alcohol, tobacco, medicinals.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 4:12 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 7:32 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 111 (363440)
11-12-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Modulous
11-12-2006 5:00 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
If the US becomes the major supplier of drugs world wide, won't that
a) mean it would have to dedicate an enormous amount of land to drug production?
b) cost a fortune in tax payers money?
Surely it affects the US?
Well, I think that is pretty much speculation. But there is an easy solution.
If that is the issue then the other countries can simply do what the US is doing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Modulous, posted 11-12-2006 5:00 PM Modulous has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 111 (363467)
11-12-2006 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Silent H
11-12-2006 7:32 PM


Re: A brief summary of jars proposed drug plan
I have asked you at least once already, why drugs would not follow the same model as alcohol, so this answer seems strange to me. The US gov't doesn't buy any of the above to hand out free to the people (except perhaps vaccines). And they certainly don't go with any and all brands of things available.
It might well evolve into something like that over time, decades likely. But right now the drug problem in the US is enormous. I believe it will take a real shock to the system to make the change.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 7:32 PM Silent H has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 111 (363485)
11-12-2006 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by tudwell
11-12-2006 10:39 PM


Which drugs
What exactly is being classified as a drug here? Just the ones that are currently illegal?
Good question.
This is mostly aimed at those drugs that form the illegal street market today. It is not a cure all, nor would it cover every possible drug. There would still be new and niche drugs that would not be addressed initially.
Prescription drugs?
No. That's another story and another thread.
Are we handing out coffee in the same place where we're passing out syringes full of heroin?
That would be a nice touch, perhaps alternating between a berry Sidamo and a Tanzanian Peaberry.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by tudwell, posted 11-12-2006 10:39 PM tudwell has not replied

  
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