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Author Topic:   separation of church and state - a christian perspective please.
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 64 (222167)
07-06-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tal
07-06-2005 12:46 PM


quote:
I think the average christian (I consider myself one) would say that the christian faith had a big impact upon the founding father's lives
The issue of what did or did not impact the founding fathers' lives is irrelevant. The issue is how we, teh currently living, wish to organize our society today.
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quote:
...it was used as guidelines for setting up the American way of life.
The founding fathers intention was to set up a government, not a "way of life".
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quote:
I don't think the founding father's ever intended to have christian sculputres, scriptures, and what have you to be eradicated from US society; or else why would they have put them there?
No one here is advocating eradicating them from society.
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quote:
That doesn't translate into "take the commandments out of the courthouse" in my view.
And in my view it does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 12:46 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 1:09 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 5 by Alexander, posted 07-06-2005 1:12 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 64 (222198)
07-06-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
07-06-2005 1:09 PM


quote:
I thought the issue here was "separation" of church and state? Where did this come from?
It is implicit in the Constitution. Whatever the founding fathers meant by the first amendment, we, as a society, have chosen to interpret to mean that no state agency may give the appearance of endorsement by clearly sectarian displays. If you don't like it, either get an amendment passed, or do what you are currently doing: elect officials who will choose judges who will reinterpret the Constitution.
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quote:
Ok, what impact does a government have on an individuals way of life? Quite a bit.
Your initial comment was that the founding fathers were trying to set up an "American way of life". This is not true. They took the "American way of life" as a given, not something to be set up. The founding fathers did not feel the need to write a Constitution that would impose a "way of life" on society, and they especially did not endorse writing a Constitution that would impose a "way of life" on future generation in perpetuity.
At any rate, what the founding fathers did or did not intend is irrelevant. What is under discussion is how we, the currently living, decide that we are going to organize our society today.
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quote:
The assault has been on since 62 when they removed prayer from school. Now you want God taken out of the courtroom, prayer out of everything, and God wiped from the pledge.
No one advocating closing down the churches, nor mandating a set doctrine that the churches would be required to teach, nor rounding up the Christians and placing them in re-education camps. Christian have and will continue to have the right to practice their religion in peace, and even to try to proselytize with their own efforts.
All anyone is trying to do is prevent the state from implicitly endorsing religion by the display of sectarian iconography.
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quote:
Ok, tell me how the commandments being presented at the front of a courthouse is congress making a law respecting the establishment of a religion and the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.
It is implicitly promoting the beliefs of those who hold the ten commandments sacred.
--
quote:
What law was passed?
It is in the Constitution, the supreme law of the land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 1:09 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 2:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 64 (222210)
07-06-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tal
07-06-2005 2:35 PM


It was the action of a state judge acting according to his authority granted by the state legislature; this is prohibited by the 1st and 14th amendments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 2:35 PM Tal has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 64 (222216)
07-06-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by deerbreh
07-06-2005 3:14 PM


quote:
Tal, I am sure you are aware that the establishment clause has long been held by the SCOTUS to apply to state and local governments as well as Congress itself.
As a clarification, this is the intended result of the 14th amendment. SCOTUS is not acting arbitrarily in this regard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by deerbreh, posted 07-06-2005 3:14 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by deerbreh, posted 07-06-2005 3:27 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 64 (222228)
07-06-2005 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by deerbreh
07-06-2005 3:27 PM


No problem -- it wasn't meant as a criticism. I thought a clarification was warranted since many on the right seem to think that the Supreme Court just makes up its rulings on a whim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by deerbreh, posted 07-06-2005 3:27 PM deerbreh has not replied

  
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