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Author Topic:   Sin
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 12 of 185 (514889)
07-13-2009 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2009 6:08 PM


Rebels without a clause
Many folks view God as a hostile other apart from a commonsense being such as ourselves. This ability to see ourselves as unlike God is one characteristic of sin.

If we try and give God credit for having every ones collective best interests at heart rather than being an autocratic despot, we can envision the desire for a communion amongst all living things in synthesis with their Creator.

As to why God foreknew that we would somehow choose to think otherwise is indeed a mystery. Its almost as if humanity is still at the rebellious teenager stage where we surely know more than our parent and want to have the right to choose to do things our way as a sign of our maturity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2009 6:08 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 185 (515056)
07-15-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Blue Jay
07-15-2009 7:45 AM


On Topic Joke
I just thought of a good joke that oddly fits this topic!

Q: Why will there be more Women in Heaven than Men?

A: Because Women are more likely to stop and ask for directions!

Seriously, though...this whole idea that we don't need a God because we would rather do it ourselves is part of what makes sin sin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Blue Jay, posted 07-15-2009 7:45 AM Blue Jay has responded

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 Message 29 by Woodsy, posted 07-15-2009 9:46 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 143 of 185 (774698)
12-21-2015 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Blue Jay
07-17-2009 12:22 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Phat writes:

...this whole idea that we don't need a God because we would rather do it ourselves is part of what makes sin sin.

Bluejay writes:

What does this have to do with Cain's sacrifice?

And, how are "wanting to do it ourselves" and "sin" correlated? I don't understand what you're saying.

We would rather make our own mistakes than be forced to repent all the time and continually confess our helplessness. Being "needy" for Gods grace only makes sense once one is crushed.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Blue Jay, posted 07-17-2009 12:22 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 3:51 AM Thugpreacha has responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 145 of 185 (774700)
12-21-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Tangle
12-21-2015 3:51 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Tangle writes:

Only a few fawning and self-loathing, uber-pious Christians think this way. Everybody else just gets on with their lives and makes the best of it.

Yeah i know---that is my bad side. Funny, though--I dont usually see myself as fawning nor uber-pious. Perhaps my depression shows, however...I am occasionally self-loathing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 3:51 AM Tangle has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 149 of 185 (774828)
12-23-2015 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
12-21-2015 11:10 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Good question! Sometimes I feel as if I am being thwarted and ultimately crushed in life, but upon further examination find that I am the instigator trying to get what I want and do things my way. Of course I pray and "surrender" to God, but in the back of my mind I believe that Gods way will also be my way since God can surely see how unfair my situation is.

It scares me to think that the answer can sometimes be No!

It also scares me to think that I have to think of others as better than myself.

It would crush me to give up.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 11:10 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 12-23-2015 2:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 151 of 185 (774841)
12-23-2015 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ringo
12-23-2015 2:26 PM


Either Fall on the rock or the Rock shall fall on you
I never said that God doesnt do anything...where do you get this from?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 12-23-2015 2:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-23-2015 3:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 153 of 185 (774844)
12-23-2015 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
12-23-2015 3:40 PM


Re: Either Fall on the rock or the Rock shall fall on you
You're taking the blame for everything bad that happens, aren't you?

No, but I play a part. Whether humans have "original" or inborn tendencies to "sin" or not, we are in fact responsible for our actions and reactions. If Jesus does in fact absolve us of our sins, it does not mean that we are passive observers. You may assert that lacking evidence of Jesus role in the process God becomes spiritually impotent --a valid argument for an atheist/agnostic, I suppose.

The bottom line, however, is that we become the decisions that we make.

To be fair, I dont take all of the responsibility for anything bad that happens in my life nor do I take all of the credit for the good that is produced.

Lets call it a communion. For me, it is between God and willing humanity. For you, it may simply be a communion among humanity.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-23-2015 3:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 12:10 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 154 of 185 (831887)
04-26-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Tangle
12-21-2015 3:51 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
perhaps you have never been "crushed" yet.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 3:51 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2018 4:25 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 158 of 185 (831923)
04-27-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by ringo
04-27-2018 12:10 PM


Is It On God or On Us?
I had to look up other peoples perspectives on this issue. In the final analysis, it is human consensus on whether or not God exists and our role as humans in the process of communion that takes place.
Faith Forum: Why does God let us make bad decisions?

Of course, the way that I learned was that God took the sins of the world upon Himself so as to absolve us of the consequences...which were out of hand from the beginning.
Critics (such as you) would argue that God caused the liability in the first place....almost like shooting someone and then becoming their Doctor to patch them back up! One could argue that no God is necessary in order for humans to experience challenges and setbacks in life...but the question then becomes whether or not God is ever actually necessary!

You seem to have concluded that there is no evidence that a God exists, then commenting on the nature and character of the God whom humans market---insisting that the book (should)be taken seriously in order to indict the God within its pages.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 1:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 160 of 185 (831926)
04-27-2018 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
04-27-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
ringo writes:

Why cherry-pick what you like and ignore what you don't?

because the whole point (or idea) of a book is human interpretation and consensus of the topic within. What difference does it make if we interpret God the way we see Him today rather than simply go with the interpretation of thousands of years ago?

I'm not saying we are any closer to the truth, but no further from it either.\

Go ahead...give Him your best shot. Invent/describe a God Who created all seen and unseen, chooses to basically leave us alone and let us "grow up", and is not directly responsible for evil.

Characters like Jesus don't even exist outside its pages.
Perhaps not in your mind.
Remember, evidence cannot count in these cases since the character that we are seeking is for all practical purposes invisible.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 04-27-2018 2:06 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 04-28-2018 11:43 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 166 of 185 (831999)
04-28-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by ringo
04-28-2018 11:43 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

Invent/describe a God Who created all seen and unseen, chooses to basically leave us alone and let us "grow up", and is not directly responsible for evil.

ringo writes:

How is that possible? Isn't evil part of "all seen and unseen"?

Perhaps we need to clarify just what evil is and is not. As an example, for all practical purposes would we consider a Tsunami "evil"? How about an earthquake? A poison spider? a drunk driver?

ringo writes:

How are we responsible for great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?

If it were possible for God to put us (or allow us to originate) on a perfect planet with no threats to our safety or health, could there be a reason that He chose not to do this?

Consider how we would have developed.

ringo writes:

In such an environment, why would anybody even need a rational mind? You could go around kicking things and smashing beehives with no pesky consequences to think about.
But if God created a real world with real consequences and if He created us with rational minds to deal with those circumstances, why wouldn't He expect us to use our minds?

Which is a valid argument for why God allowed us to exist here. I don't think you have really thought through how humans may behave in a world truly free from evil (and rebellion) since we ourselves would not have a need for kicking things and tipping over beehives. I theorize that we currently cannot imagine how we would behave in the absence of any and all evil, but I expect it would differ from our capabilities now.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 04-28-2018 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 11:50 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 167 of 185 (832000)
04-28-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
04-27-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

Go ahead...give Him your best shot. Invent/describe a God Who created all seen and unseen, chooses to basically leave us alone and let us "grow up", and is not directly responsible for evil.


jar writes:

Why. Why give God a free pass?

In your tradition, of course...God allows Himself to be challenged and questioned by humans on a near constant basis.

I am assuming that God deserves a free pass due to executive privilege, much as a wise general or statesman is given at times.

If you insist on bringing Her to trial for creating evil, you will need to prove that evil was an unneeded and/or unnecessary addition to reality. And again, we need to define what specifically is and is not evil.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 04-27-2018 2:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 04-28-2018 4:46 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 169 of 185 (832004)
04-28-2018 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by jar
04-28-2018 4:46 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
At the risk of invoking the appeal to popularity, why is it that some of the major apologists fail to see what you find so obvious? They too have read the Bible, and yet market a different conclusion. Peter Kreeft is an obvious example.

You have a good argument supported by scriptures, but my question is how you have arrived at a different conclusion from many, if not most other learned Christians.

My possibility/potential evil argument is quite logical within their paradigm, though you correctly point out that its not supported by the Bible. So again my argument of why we cant speculate on which God we choose to market rather than limiting our paradigm to scriptures thousands of years old.

Besides...i dont like this "complete" God that you market. You have fused good and evil into the actions of One Being rather than a consequence of rebellion...

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 04-28-2018 4:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2018 5:56 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 172 of 185 (832038)
04-29-2018 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
04-28-2018 6:17 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
jar writes:

...you do not like the conclusions that are supported by the evidence ...


When it comes to imagining/defining God as can be guessed, the evidence is so far away from the reality so as to confirm that reality is not always as it seems.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 04-28-2018 6:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 04-29-2018 6:16 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 174 of 185 (832059)
04-29-2018 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
04-29-2018 6:16 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
You claim that I don't like the "evidence" of what the Bible says and thus make up a fantasy.

We have had this same argument before, with a twist or two.

Phat writes:

All that the Theologians seemed they were trying to do was to attempt to understand and define God in light of scripture.

You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists.

Granted TULIP speaks of a God that I would prefer not to believe in...but after all, I need to have a frame of reference to conceptualize the God whom I believe actually is. And i dont really like the universalist idea of a God compiled from many varying belief systems either.

jar writes:

I am not trying to market any god or any dogma but rather simply honestly present the evidence.

But all you are doing is turning Christianity into a humanist philosophy.
You, of course, will successfully argue that Jesus pushed the same agenda.

Phat writes:

There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.


jar writes:

Nonsense.

We need to throw God away.

Thus legitimizing a humanist agenda and claiming its what Jesus really taught. You can call it Christianity if you like, but its simply just humanism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 04-29-2018 6:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 04-29-2018 11:47 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 11:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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