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Author
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Topic: Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired?
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 286 of 386 (577525)
08-29-2010 12:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 281 by Buzsaw
08-29-2010 8:32 AM
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Which Scripture?
quote:
The Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word. It/he inspires, enlightens, bears witness with our spirit and enlivens, always within the bounds of scripture. It is the spirit of Jehovah who inspired the writers and the one and same spirit of Jesus, son of Jehovah, the Biblical god. He/it is the multipresent member of the trinity which makes the three one and by which the believer is spiritually born children of God, i.e. one spirit effecting the family of Jehovah.
But that's the issue at hand. If the Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word, which written word? They aren't all the same. The written word has been changed. Who inspired the changes and then the changes back? Take 1 John 5:7-8:
NIV
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. Douay-Rheims Bible
7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one. The Johannine Comma was found in the manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate, but not in the majority of the Greek manuscripts.
These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 281 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2010 8:32 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 287 of 386 (577529)
08-29-2010 1:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 281 by Buzsaw
08-29-2010 8:32 AM
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Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
Buzsaw writes: The Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word.
I haven't suggested otherwise. What I'm asking is: If the Bible was authoritative and truly inspired, why would we need the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding it? Conversely, if the Holy Spirit is guiding you, why can't he guide you directly instead of through the Bible? You and John are both claiming that the Holy Spirit is to the Bible what Cliff Notes is to Shakespeare's plays. You both seem to be arguing against the premise that the Bible is authoritative and truly inspired because it requires a crutch to understand it.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 281 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2010 8:32 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Really? really?
Most of the NT writings can be dated back to the 4th century AD This is your argument? The 3 centuries between the supposed events and the writing down are meaningless? This would be like writing about an event in 1710 now, and saying it is based on fact. Even though all we may have about it is stories that have passed down through the ages.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 1:22 PM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
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Message 289 of 386 (577607)
08-29-2010 6:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 279 by ringo
08-28-2010 9:06 PM
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Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
quote:
But I asked you: If the Spirit is guiding you on how to interpret the Word, what do you need the Word for at all? Why can't the Spirit tell you directly how to carry out God's spiritual principles? It seems pretty clear that some people are getting the wrong principles from the Word, so why not eliminate the middleman entirely?
Pure and simple: Because there are a lot of charlatans out there that would like to tell you things that violate the principles of God's Word.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 279 by ringo, posted 08-28-2010 9:06 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 291 by ringo, posted 08-29-2010 6:49 PM | | John 10:10 has replied |
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
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God's Message of Salvation is Repentance and Being Born Again
The essence of God's salvation in Christ Jesus in "BOTH repentance AND being born again by God's Spirit." Do not ignore the entire message of John 3:3-7.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
John 10:10 writes: ringo writes: Why can't the Spirit tell you directly how to carry out God's spiritual principles? It seems pretty clear that some people are getting the wrong principles from the Word, so why not eliminate the middleman entirely?
Pure and simple: Because there are a lot of charlatans out there that would like to tell you things that violate the principles of God's Word.
You didn't answer the question: Why not eliminate the Bible altogether and rely on the Holy Spirit to whisper The Truth™ in people's ears? As I mentioned to Buzsaw, you seem to be arguing that the Bible is neither authoritative nor truly inspired. You're using the Holy Spirit as your final authority instead of the Bible and you're relying on continuing inspiration from the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible instead of trusting the inspiration in the Bible.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Re: God's Message of Salvation is Repentance and Being Born Again
quote:
The essence of God's salvation in Christ Jesus in "BOTH repentance AND being born again by God's Spirit." Do not ignore the entire message of John 3:3-7.
Repentance means a change of mind. One puts off the old wrong behavior and puts on new right behavior. A new person is born. Repentance and born again, same idea. It's a matter of continuing right behavior. There's no magical reboot. It's a choice to change. This doesn't really deal with the authority or inspiration behind the Bible.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 294 by John 10:10, posted 08-30-2010 11:01 AM | | purpledawn has seen this message but not replied |
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
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Message 293 of 386 (577774)
08-30-2010 10:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 291 by ringo
08-29-2010 6:49 PM
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Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
quote:
Why not eliminate the Bible altogether and rely on the Holy Spirit to whisper The Truth in people's ears?
Read my lips: Because there are a lot of charlatans out there that would like to tell you things (that they say the Holy Spirit told them) that violate the principles of God's Word.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 291 by ringo, posted 08-29-2010 6:49 PM | | ringo has replied |
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
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Re: God's Message of Salvation is Repentance and Being Born Again
Those that have repented of their sins and have been "born again" by the Spirit through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ know the authority and inspiration of the of the Bible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 292 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2010 8:01 PM | | purpledawn has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 295 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 11:20 AM | | John 10:10 has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: God's Message of Salvation is Repentance and Being Born Again
John 10:10 writes: Those that have repented of their sins and have been "born again" by the Spirit through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ know the authority and inspiration of the of the Bible I have asked you many times now and still await an answer. How do you tell that it was the Spirit and not just a New Mexico burrito?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
quote:
Read my lips: Because there are a lot of charlatans out there that would like to tell you things (that they say the Holy Spirit told them) that violate the principles of God's Word.
And as we've shown you, the text has been accidentally and purposely changed over time. The task now is to figure out what the closest thing we have to an "original" actually said. Some cling to tradition no matter what has been discovered. So which is inspired the text, the changes, the fixers, or the tradition? NOTE: Hypothetical situation to follow. Seriously, hypothetical. Not real. Got it? If someone tells me that Jesus is God and he provides the text to support his position, then I do my research and find that the text he used was corrupted by scribes in the 3rd century. The text in the older manuscripts do not support his position. Which text is inspired? Which text do I trust? Which text tells me he is a charlatan or not? Do we take the oldest or the one that follows a current tradition?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
John 10:10 writes: ringo writes: Why not eliminate the Bible altogether and rely on the Holy Spirit to whisper The Truth in people's ears?
Because there are a lot of charlatans out there that would like to tell you things (that they say the Holy Spirit told them) that violate the principles of God's Word.
Then why not eliminate the Holy Spirit as an authority on interpretation? You seem to be claiming that we need the Holy Spirit to verify what the Bible says and we need the Bible to verify what the Holy Spirit says. In the world of charlatans, the Holy Spirit would be the shill, the one who says, "Yes, it's true! I was healed by Professor Marvel's Magic Snake Oil Elixir!" Your reasoning is circular. You need something outside the circle to confirm both the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
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Message 298 of 386 (577803)
08-30-2010 1:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 295 by jar
08-30-2010 11:20 AM
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Re: God's Message of Salvation is Repentance and Being Born Again
quote:
How do you tell that it was the Spirit and not just a New Mexico burrito?
If you can't understand the answer I gave you the last time you asked this question, you won't understand it if I give it to you again. Peace Edited by John 10:10, : added "you"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 295 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 11:20 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 299 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 1:41 PM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: God's Message of Salvation is Repentance and Being Born Again
LOL So try a different method. So far you have done nothing but spout dogma and chase your tale (pun intended).
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 298 by John 10:10, posted 08-30-2010 1:38 PM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
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Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
And I've explained to you over and over that the principles of God's salvation that are in Christ Jesus that are in today's Bibles have not changed since they were witten many hundreds of years ago. They work today just like they worked then, for those God is calling to Himself. Peace
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