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Author Topic:   How can there be a creator without creation?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 111 (519327)
08-13-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by tuffers
08-13-2009 5:30 AM


Hmm ...
The whole Bible story hangs on the proposition that God was a creator. But they got that FUNDEMENTAL part wrong.
In your analogy, it as if you told me about your brother Steve's days as a high school football star, but you didn't even have a brother, and there was no such thing as football. It's not like they just got God's hair colour wrong! They got the fundemental idea of what God supposedly was, a creator, wrong. And they were so far off the mark that they had to have made the story up. It's not as if they just misread the evidence and said he made the Earth a billion rather than 4.5 billion years ago, or that humans descended from squirrels rather than apes. If they'd said that, I might accept that maybe they made a few honest mistakes and there was still some substantial truth in their story. But their creation story is so far off the mark that they blatantly made it up, and therefore they made up the creator to fit in with that creation.
Well, I don't think this argument is very good.
Look, suppose (for the sake of argument) there was some supernatural being that (for example) created the universe, but not in the way depicted in Genesis, who spoke to Abraham, who gave Moses the Ten Commandments and parted the Red Sea for him, who cast down the walls of Jericho, who laid waste the armies of Sennacherib, who was incarnate as Jesus, who spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus ... then would inaccuracies in Genesis lead us to say "God doesn't exist; or "Genesis is an inaccurate story about God"?
---
And that's just the Bible God. There are others. Why, apart from cultural chauvinism, didn't you begin your argument by defining God as the guy who dictated the Qur'aan to Muhammad?
---
Or then again, consider the following. If you read a Scientologist biography of L. Ron Hubbard, you will read a work of fiction containing an entirely fictional account of how he created Scientology.
But instead of this leading us to say that L. Ron Hubbard didn't exist, we would rather say that Scientologist writings about him are inaccurate, wouldn't we? Because he isn't defined as being the person whom Scientologists have described with perfect accuracy.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by tuffers, posted 08-13-2009 5:30 AM tuffers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by tuffers, posted 08-13-2009 1:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 31 of 111 (519412)
08-13-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by tuffers
08-13-2009 1:31 PM


Re: Hmm ...
I think there is sufficient evidence now to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that the creation story of Genesis was made up, which means that whatever else it says in the bible, it is completely unjustified to continue to consider that God above anything else as a potential creator. We should therefore abandon all reference to God when talking about the possibility of a creation, unless any evidence is found for a creation and to link it to the character depicted in the bible.
My emphasis added.
When you say "that God", then you kind of admit that "God" doesn't necessarily mean "that God", otherwise you wouldn't need to specify which God you were talking about.
It is plain, on scientific grounds, that there was no being who magicked species into existence 6000 years ago. So if that's what we meant by "God", then there is no God. But that's not what we mean by "God", which is why you have to specify him as "that God".

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 Message 29 by tuffers, posted 08-13-2009 1:31 PM tuffers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by tuffers, posted 08-14-2009 3:59 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 33 of 111 (519425)
08-13-2009 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ICANT
08-13-2009 2:48 PM


Re: Re Creation
There are people who claim God made the earth in 6 days.
The Bible makes no such claim.
Unless you read the Book of Genesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ICANT, posted 08-13-2009 2:48 PM ICANT has replied

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 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 08-13-2009 3:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 35 of 111 (519429)
08-13-2009 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by tuffers
08-13-2009 1:31 PM


Re: Hmm ...
I think there is sufficient evidence now to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that the creation story of Genesis was made up, which means that whatever else it says in the bible, it is completely unjustified to continue to consider that God above anything else as a potential creator. We should therefore abandon all reference to God when talking about the possibility of a creation, unless any evidence is found for a creation and to link it to the character depicted in the bible.
But isn't that like saying: "I think there is sufficient evidence now to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that the Scientologists' story of the creation of Scientology was made up ... We should therefore abandon all reference to L. Ron Hubbard when talking about the possibility of the creation of Scientology ..."
I have deliberately avoided refering to any other religions and their creation stories for the sake of simplicity and also because I know nothing whatsover about them and hopefully never will.
Hi Dr Adequate
I fully understand the point you are making and if you read my long-winded reply to Icant I hope you can see what my position is.
I think there is sufficient evidence now to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that the creation story of Genesis was made up, which means that whatever else it says in the bible, it is completely unjustified to continue to consider that God above anything else as a potential creator. We should therefore abandon all reference to God when talking about the possibility of a creation, unless any evidence is found for a creation and to link it to the character depicted in the bible.
I have deliberately avoided refering to any other religions and their creation stories for the sake of simplicity and also because I know nothing whatsover about them and hopefully never will.
Well, that's your problem right there.
You wish to argue that "God" doesn't exist, but you want to take "God" to mean the particular version of God believed in by Christian fundamentalists, and you actually say that you know nothing about any other concept of God and that you hope you never will.
Well, this sort of attitude will not help you debate with anyone who has a concept of God different from that believed in by the fundies. On the contrary, it will make you look like an idiot. Why should you define "God" to mean "the God believed in by fundamentalist Christians"?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by tuffers, posted 08-13-2009 1:31 PM tuffers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by tuffers, posted 08-14-2009 5:47 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 75 of 111 (520025)
08-19-2009 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by tuffers
08-14-2009 5:47 AM


Re: Hmm ...
I would happily read another ancient account of creation (religious text) if anyone could tell me of one that accurately reflects our modern scientific understanding of the universe.
Why an ancient religious text? Why not a modern one?
Ancient people knew that the Sun and Moon existed, so they attributed them to God. Modern people know about evolution and the Big Bang, so if they are religious, they attribute those to him too as a couple of his ideas.
God qua creator is simply not defined (except by fundies, to whom I would not trust the definition of "cheese sandwich") as: "The being who behaved in the way described in Genesis as taken absolutely literally". He's just defined as the First Cause of everything else --- whatever everything else turns out to be like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by tuffers, posted 08-14-2009 5:47 AM tuffers has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 105 of 111 (555069)
04-12-2010 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by flylike1
04-11-2010 6:59 PM


The Law Of Superposition
The bible says everything was created at the same time, the Law of Superposition (applied) proves that this is not the case.
"Everything was created at the same time" is not a fair summary. The Bible says that fiat creation happened over a period of six days, but it does not say that everything came into being as a direct result of that act of fiat creation. No creationist would argue with the proposition that I was born two thousand years or so after the Emperor Augustus, because no creationist thinks that Augustus and I are a direct result of the six-day creation. Hence although he and I are comprised in "everything", the Bible does not state nor imply that we were both created at the same time --- nor "created" at all in a strict sense.
In the same way, a creationist is free to suppose that successive layers of sedimentary rock were indeed laid down successively in the order implied by superposition. (He'd have a bit more trouble with the law of faunal succession.)
As a matter of fact, the law of superposition was proposed by a creationist, Nicholas Steno, back in the day when creationists did things other than be wrong.
Your argument needs a little more work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by flylike1, posted 04-11-2010 6:59 PM flylike1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by flylike1, posted 04-18-2010 7:15 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 107 by flylike1, posted 04-18-2010 7:38 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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