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Author Topic:   Why is it that God couldn't have made Creation with evolution?
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 151 of 167 (579924)
09-06-2010 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Archangel
09-06-2010 9:45 AM


"How were such titanic blocks of stone brought to the top of the mountain from the quarries many miles away?

yu would be surprised what a few ropes some material to role somthing on and a few oxses and a cupple of men can move

stone tool or implement that would cut or chip the andesite

oh no's diamonds are the hardest material known to man how ever can we cut and shape them so they can look preaty on rings

diamonds are polished whit diamonds, and if there is no other tool to cut and shape andesite im guessing andesite would do, to cut it get some sand something similar to a saw it needs no teeth and cut away

How were they raised and put in place?
give me a point to stand on and i can move the Earth (ever hear about something like leverage)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Archangel, posted 09-06-2010 9:45 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 167 (579943)
09-06-2010 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Archangel
09-06-2010 8:42 AM


So, where are the garbage dumps from these NYC-sized ancient cities?
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 09-06-2010 7:50 PM nator has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 153 of 167 (579944)
09-06-2010 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by nator
09-06-2010 7:46 PM


Likely the same place NYC's garbage goes, Virginia and South Carolina.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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 Message 152 by nator, posted 09-06-2010 7:46 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 154 of 167 (579986)
09-07-2010 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
09-06-2010 7:50 PM


There's plenty at the bottom of the rivers, I'm sure. There's also lots buried all along the edges of Manahattan.
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Archangel
Member (Idle past 879 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 155 of 167 (583187)
09-25-2010 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blissful
08-19-2009 6:17 PM


Let me simplify this for you:
While staying on topic regarding the OP. This question: Why is it that God couldn't have made Creation with evolution? If true would prove God a liar, and not a very good one since everything He tells us in Genesis directly and specifically contradicts what evolution teaches is the origin of life on Earth.

The bible very clearly says that God created MAN in HIS (Gods) own image and that He gave us dominion over all life on Earth. That we have always had this God given dominion is undeniable and that we remain superior to all other life forms as creative, imaginative and intellectual superiors also remains an undeniable fact.

So the question is, by what observable evidence/claims within and from Gods Word (THE BIBLE) do you surmise that He used macro-evolution in any way to make Creation?


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 Message 1 by Blissful, posted 08-19-2009 6:17 PM Blissful has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by nwr, posted 09-25-2010 10:16 AM Archangel has not yet responded
 Message 157 by jar, posted 09-25-2010 12:03 PM Archangel has not yet responded
 Message 158 by Granny Magda, posted 09-25-2010 3:24 PM Archangel has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 156 of 167 (583195)
09-25-2010 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Archangel
09-25-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
Archangel writes:
If true would prove God a liar

That's your mistake.

Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the rocks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2010 9:37 AM Archangel has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 157 of 167 (583208)
09-25-2010 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Archangel
09-25-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
If true would prove God a liar, and not a very good one since everything He tells us in Genesis directly and specifically contradicts what evolution teaches is the origin of life on Earth.

Did God create all that is, seen and unseen?

If so, why does ALL that God created refute the accounts of creation in the Bible?

Now it is possible that God faked all of the evidence that is the universe we live in and the life we see around us so that it includes false data that disagrees with the stories in the Bible. If that is true then God is most definitely a liar and a cheater, a trickster like Loki or Coyote.

Or, man could have written the Bible and the evidence that God created, the universe we live in and the life we see around us that is telling the true story.

Do you worship the God that created all that is, seen and unseen, or the Bible that man wrote?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 158 of 167 (583233)
09-25-2010 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Archangel
09-25-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
Hi Archangel,

Why is it that God couldn't have made Creation with evolution? If true would prove God a liar, and not a very good one since everything He tells us in Genesis directly and specifically contradicts what evolution teaches is the origin of life on Earth.

Well, if you insist that the Bible is the absolute, literal, unaltered, unfaltering and infallible Word of GodTM then I agree; it does make God a liar.

On the other hand, if you regard the Bible as a human document, authored by fallible men who were doing their best to describe the divine then I don't agree. Even if we suppose that the Bible is divinely inspired, it was still written by fallible humans. Perhaps they failed to get the whole perfect message across properly. Perhaps they misunderstood. Perhaps the message was distorted in between its original inspiration and its being written down.

The Bible shows every sign of having been written by human authors. Humans screw up. They tried to describe the origins of the world, but they got it wrong. It's not really such a big deal.

That we have always had this God given dominion is undeniable and that we remain superior to all other life forms as creative, imaginative and intellectual superiors also remains an undeniable fact.

It's not undeniable at all. The human population was once much smaller than it is now. This is borne out by both fossil and genetic evidence. The world was around for a long time before we arrived.

I would also point out, that whilst we may be more intelligent, creative and imaginative than other species, we are inferior to other animals in most other respects. I fail to see why intelligence should be singled out as being the most important characteristic.

So the question is, by what observable evidence/claims within and from Gods Word (THE BIBLE) do you surmise that He used macro-evolution in any way to make Creation?

None. It doesn't say that. But then, why should it? And why should we attempt to understand the world by reading a religious text, when we can just study the world itself?

Mutate and Survive


"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod
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Replies to this message:
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Kyrill of Beltsville
Junior Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 09-28-2010


Message 159 of 167 (583654)
09-28-2010 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Granny Magda
09-25-2010 3:24 PM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
I believe that God created the world. I also accept the idea that the modern theory of evolution is most likely the mechanism whereby life developed on earth. I also believe that the books of the Bible must be read with respect, attention and great care. If we want to deepen our understanding of what we are reading, we must inquire, to the extent possible, as to the intent of the human author or authors and also the context of what they have written.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by nwr, posted 09-28-2010 12:44 PM Kyrill of Beltsville has not yet responded
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 Message 163 by frako, posted 09-28-2010 1:43 PM Kyrill of Beltsville has not yet responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 160 of 167 (583661)
09-28-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Kyrill of Beltsville
09-28-2010 12:21 PM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
Hello, Kyrill of Beltsville. Welcome to the evcforum debates.

You might want to open a Coffee House thread, where you can introduce yourself. Note that this is not required, but some new members like to do that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Kyrill of Beltsville, posted 09-28-2010 12:21 PM Kyrill of Beltsville has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1058 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 161 of 167 (583666)
09-28-2010 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Granny Magda
09-25-2010 3:24 PM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
It's not really such a big deal.

Yeah...you're whole philosophy on life, your beliefs and the entire meaning of your existence have just come crumbling down around you, no big deal. There are other books to read.

Just being a dick.

While I agree with you 1000 percent, I can't help but think you're being quite dismissive with the Bible and are treating it like any other book on the shelf. And again, while I agree with you that it should be regarded as such, someone like Archangel I would imagine regards it as the holy, infallible, word of the creator of the universe. Which doesn't seem like much to me, because I don't share this opinion, but I can only imagine what that kind of belief must be like and how sacred one would view the Bible.

No big deal? I don't know, seems like what you're asking Archangel to do is the biggest deal of his/her life.

- Oni


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3400
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 162 of 167 (583670)
09-28-2010 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Kyrill of Beltsville
09-28-2010 12:21 PM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
Kyrill, your initial post here is a concise statement of how I've always felt a theist should view the matter.

By analogy, imagine two gardeners given the task to create a topiary garden. The first gardener takes a somewhat bonsai approach, seeing how the plants naturally want to grow, subtly trimming here and there to influence the direction of growth, so that the plants will naturally develop into what the gardener envisions. The other gardener just cuts and trims his plants directly into the shapes he wants. The second gardener's plants require constant maintenance and trimming for them to retain the desired forms, whereas the first gardener's plants are naturally in their desired forms and thus require very little maintenance.

Which gardener is the masterful one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Kyrill of Beltsville, posted 09-28-2010 12:21 PM Kyrill of Beltsville has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 163 of 167 (583675)
09-28-2010 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Kyrill of Beltsville
09-28-2010 12:21 PM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
I believe that God created the world.

well the problem whit that is that the world could have created itself following natural laws so adding a deity in to the mix complicates matters and do to occam's Razor the simplest explanation is usually right. we cannot whit a 100% certanty god did not create the world we can say it is fare more probable that the world caused itself


For example, some claim that God caused himself to exist and also caused the universe to exist - he was the "first cause" - whereas Occam's Razor suggests that if one accepts the possibility of something causing itself then it is better to assume that it was the universe that caused itself rather than God because this explanation involves fewer entities.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Occoms+razor

the same goes whit god guiding evolution, we know it can happen on its own so it most probably did, invoking deities complicates matters so it is more probable that it happened on its own.

to put it simple witch of these in this situation is more probable

a vase is broken in your living room the doors are locked and the only one home was your kid.

A) the kid broke the vase
B) a stranger broke in broke the vase then left leaving no trace or evidence of him being there

whitout other evidence the logical conclusion is that the kid broke the vase

I also believe that the books of the Bible must be read with respect, attention and great care. If we want to deepen our understanding of what we are reading, we must inquire, to the extent possible, as to the intent of the human author or authors and also the context of what they have written.

well i agree whit you there and the same goes for other religius scriptures you cant use your own wive point if you read those aincent scriptures you have to put your self in the shoes and mindset of the author

Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Kyrill of Beltsville, posted 09-28-2010 12:21 PM Kyrill of Beltsville has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by barbara, posted 09-28-2010 2:12 PM frako has responded
 Message 166 by dwise1, posted 09-28-2010 3:41 PM frako has responded

    
barbara
Member (Idle past 2910 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 164 of 167 (583686)
09-28-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by frako
09-28-2010 1:43 PM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
If you could take a pole from all of the other species on the planet and ask, "Would you rather leave your fate to "blind luck" or from a director? They would all agree that "luck" provides better odds for living a longer duration of existence. They have already witnessed what a directed agent (human) did in terms of current extinction rates.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 165 of 167 (583701)
09-28-2010 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by barbara
09-28-2010 2:12 PM


Re: Let me simplify this for you:
25 a day go extinct if i am not mistaken mostly do to man's actions
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