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Author Topic:   Why Reuse Design?
Taq
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Message 1 of 60 (581806)
09-17-2010 3:42 PM


ID supporters often claim that "it makes sense that a designer would reuse a design that works". But why does it make sense? Why not start from scratch and build a whole new design each time?
To get to the bottom of this conundrum I would like to ask the hoi polloi the following question: why do humans reuse designs?

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 Message 38 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2010 1:00 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 23 of 60 (582222)
09-20-2010 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
09-18-2010 8:20 AM


I think it's partly because since the Industrial Revolution education has mostly been communal rather than individual and in-family and small schools. The larger our public schools get, the dumber the graduates are and the more they think alike.
So one reason that humans reuse designs is that we have limited knowledge, for whatever reason. Do you agree?

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Taq
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Message 24 of 60 (582224)
09-20-2010 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
09-18-2010 11:35 AM


As a designer, I agree that reuse of design is common - if it aint broke don't fix it + why spend time reinventing the wheel when you have one that works well enough for the design intent.
The second reason given thus far is that humans are limited by time.
So thus far we have limited knowledge and limited time as being factors as to why humans reuse designs.

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Taq
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Member Rating: 5.6


Message 25 of 60 (582225)
09-20-2010 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
09-19-2010 9:09 AM


Re: Design By Intelligence
The question which seems to be implicated in the above would be why the alleged ID designer who designed all things in the Universe reuses/replicates design.
Ultimately, that is the question. Thus far, the only reasons that humans do resuse designs is because we have limited knowledge and limited time. If you are going to claim that it makes sense that the designer would reuse designs then the designer must also be limited like us, having limited time and limited knowledge.

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Taq
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Member Rating: 5.6


Message 29 of 60 (582246)
09-20-2010 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by slevesque
09-20-2010 1:57 PM


You can also add that sometimes we reuse a design because it is the optimal design to use in a given situation
Can you give an example?

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Taq
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Message 32 of 60 (582299)
09-20-2010 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-20-2010 2:10 PM


Where that breaks down though is when we look at life. There we do not find that the same design gets reused, and that optimal seldom is relevant.
One of the most basic examples is the relationship between the amino acid and the anti-codon in a molecule of tRNA. Here is a picture of one:
Now, can anyone tell me why the tyrosine residue on one end has to match up with the GUA at the other end? I can't find any reason whatsoever why this relationship must exist. It is arbitrary. So for each separate creation there is no reason (other than limited knowledge, limited time, and limited resources) that anyone would reuse this relationship.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
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Member Rating: 5.6


Message 35 of 60 (582309)
09-20-2010 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by slevesque
09-20-2010 6:42 PM


But now in your post you state lots of examples where designs could have been reused but haven't, instead ''time after time living things reinvented the wheel''.
So why is anything reused, right down to codon usage? Why is novel design limited?
You seem to want to argue against the existence of an intelligent designer based on the fact that designes are been reused, AND based on the fact that new designs are started from scratch even though one could have been reused
There are no organisms that have been started from scratch. All life shares common characterstics, or for this thread reused designs. Why? Is God not capable of making an entirely new genome with new codon usage as easily as God could change a genome by 2% to make a slightly modified ape like us? It would seem that for a being with infinite knowledge and power making a 2% change from a chimp would be just as easy as building everything from scratch.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 40 of 60 (582431)
09-21-2010 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
09-20-2010 10:38 PM


I think an important point is that existing pieces parts often get reused, and often pressed into different duties. We see jaw bones become ear bones, arteries that supplied blood to a gill reused a the supply for the larynx, toe bones become hooves; lots of examples of just using pieces parts that were already there for a new function.
IOW, we see modification of previous designs instead of designing from scratch. The bird wing is a modified dinosaur forelimb. The bat wing is made up of modified mammalian phalanges. So on and so forth.
What we DON'T see is what we do see in human design. We do not see the good idea that is developed in one design implemented across the whole line. Just look at the variety of great or at least optimal designs that exist in animals. We don't see the human mind design used in all the mammals, the Vicuna's blood system that carries more oxygen duplicated across all mammals; what we do see is "just good enough to get by" is the norm, not optimum or even good design.
So we see that reuse of design also falls under another level of restriction, that of a nested hierarchy. Even humans do not restrict themselves to such a rigid pattern of design reuse. It would seem that the supposed designer is even more limited than humans.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
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Message 41 of 60 (582433)
09-21-2010 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by dwise1
09-21-2010 1:00 AM


Reusing previous designs is a human thing. But a "godly" thing? Human fallibility dictates that designing from scratch is necessary, but an omni-potent god is not limited in such a manner -- it's too much work for too much time with too many bugs introduced for mere humans, but not for God. Economic concerns absolutely dictate the route that engineers will take, practically forcing them into the evolutionary tract. What omni-potent God could ever be forced into such a course of action? IOW, God could not possibly be forced into the design restraints that mere human engineers must constantly contend with.
Which gets me to the point I was trying to make. When ID supporters state that "reusing design makes sense" they are taking a anthropic view, not a God-like view. It is my opinion that this anthropic view is actually the antithesis of the the God-like view where it concerns design. The anthropic approach to the question of reuse of design is based on the differences between humans and deities (at least the omnipotent and omniscient ones).
When ID supporters claim that reusing designs makes sense we should challenge it. It doesn't make sense, at least for an omnipotent, omniscient designer that resides in a realm outside of space and time.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 53 of 60 (583669)
09-28-2010 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
09-27-2010 10:52 PM


Re: Reuse of Design
The ole saying, "if it works, don't fix it" applies.
Why does it apply when considering an all knowing and all powerful deity who resides outside of space and time? Surely God knows of millions of completely unrelated designs for any given niche. Since God resides outside of space and time he has all the time in the world to make these designs work before realizing them in our universe.
If the ultimate purpose is to propagate the species, it would make no sense to implememt multiple means of doing it.
Why doesn't it make sense? For an all powerful and all knowing deity who resides outside of space and time starting from scratch takes the same effort and reusing a design. So why reuse design when starting from scratch requires the same effort (which is none either way, you would think).
Or is God limited in his powers in some way? Was God under a deadline? Does God lack and imagination? Does God have limited resources?

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 54 of 60 (583671)
09-28-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by barbara
09-28-2010 2:23 AM


Re: Doesn"t the law of physics apply here
By re use in designs or altering it is much cheaper than building from scratch.
Does God have a limited bank account?
The fact that creatures appear to built just good enough not perfect indicates to me an energy limitation is in place.
It goes beyond that. tRNA's with different anti-codons require the same amount of energy to construct and use. So why use the same anti-codons for methionine tRNA across all life? Why would an all powerful and all knowing deity need to reuse anything?
From an evolutionary standpoint it makes a lot of sense, but I fail to see how the "common designer" paradigm makes sense when talking about an all powerful designer.

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