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Author Topic:   What is the creation science theory of the origin of light?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 86 of 297 (624112)
07-16-2011 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-15-2011 11:52 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
The first possibility is that I am an ignorant fool and after eight years of pouring over the equations like you suggest, I should discover what those putative dimensions are in aid of exactly and how any strings can possibly vibrate while not being attached to anything, how anything possessing zero height can possess any width or length and so on.

It seems that your entire approach to science is "Can I understand this? If so, it is probably correct; if not, it is almost certainly wrong." I have to say that this combination of utter arrogance and total ineptitude is endemic amongst the cranks and armchair pontificators that spring up on the internet. I am sorry to say but you have wasted your eight years of "study". Within a matter of days, you could have read the first few chapters of Superstrings by Green, Schwarz, and Witten (Cambridge University Press), and would know exactly why we have these extra dimensions in String Theory - but somehow I get the feeling that these eight years of "study" have studeously avoided anything that can be considered close to actual academic work.

Don't get me wrong - there are many who have little time for String Theory and its descendents, many for whom I have the deepest respect. But they come to their conclusions based upon a foundation of knowledge and expertise, where-as you come to your "conclusions" based upon ignorance and incomprehension. There is, as I'm sure you will agree, a fundemental difference...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-15-2011 11:52 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:42 AM cavediver has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 90 of 297 (624145)
07-16-2011 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-16-2011 6:42 AM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
I'm sorry, Alfred, but your own writing reveals exactly how much understanding you possess, and all the bluster and bravdo in the world cannot disguise its vacuity. Directing you to a published textbook is not exactly an appeal to authority, and your thinking that it is simply reveals more of your crank mindset. And I do not appeal to others' authority: having worked with two of the three authors, I have enough of my own

Anyone wanting to know why String Theory requires extra dimensions would do well to check out this old post of mine Message 99. Lots of good stuff in the preceding messages as well...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:42 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:54 PM cavediver has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 94 of 297 (624253)
07-16-2011 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-16-2011 6:54 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
With that level of vagueness instead of teaching physics you are fit to clean latrines only.

I must admit that my first paid employment was indeed cleaning "latrines" - it must have been this on my CV that led the University of Cambridge to employ me to teach both physics and mathematics. Such insight, Alfred. If only you could apply it to science. Sadly, once again, your muddled verbosity simply reveals yet more ignorance. I would spend time explaining further the basics of String Theory, except that I have always had a policy of only teaching those that have a desire to learn. You know the adage: teaching the pig to sing is futile and furthermore annoys the pig. Of course, should anyone else have any questions, please post them in an appropriate thread and I'll do my best to find time to answer them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:54 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 8:47 PM cavediver has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 106 of 297 (624295)
07-17-2011 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-16-2011 8:47 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
Whereas why you don't want to teach a pig like me to sing remains everybody's guess.

No, only yours. It is blatently obvious to everyone else. You already think you see better and further than the entire world body of mathematicians and physicists working in the fields of cosmology and theoretical physics. You think that your own judgment on reasonableness is a sound metric for whether a theory has merit or otherwise. And yet you demonstrate zero mathematical knowledge and ability to actually discuss the physics in its proper place. No, this is definitely a pig that should be left well alone.

However, ignoring my own good sense, do not get so hung up upon the word "string". You are criticising the analogy, not the physics (now there's a surprise.) Go back to the Polyakov action. Understand that the X fields are simply our own space-time dimensions. Calculate the equations of motion of the Xs, and you find you simply get a set of Wave-Equations. And thus the 3d cross-section of the 2d string world-sheet appears as a loop carrying virbrational modes. Simple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 8:47 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-17-2011 9:45 AM cavediver has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 109 of 297 (624329)
07-17-2011 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-17-2011 9:45 AM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
The analogy is actually the best possible reflection of what is meant.

Says the hearer of the analogy No wonder you are so confused and know so little...

The thing giving rise to the analogy is an abstraction of energy or force in the shape of string in theory capable of action on itself to change its own tension, the ratios of its length ie intervals along its semi-dimensional length resulting in different notes that in this case are different observable phenomena.

Pure gibberish.

The same conceptual difficulty remains with the field equations;

You don't even undertstand the concept of "field equations"

the actual meaning derived is that the strings are attached to space-time while space-time is made of the same strings. That is where the analogy of loop is coming from.

No, no it is not Why do you even bother, Alfred? Your words may bamboozle others, but you're talking to an actual physicist who used to publish on this very subject. I'm sorry, but the only conversation we can ever have is me explaining yet again that you are talking bollocks.

The underlying problem is again that the energy or force is only an aspect of something not the thing itself capable of possessing dimensions. It's an abstraction of its ability to act and make move.
Now saying that this abstraction vibrates is like saying that strings of love press themselves to vibrate inducing people at different intervals to love and hate, ie., attraction and repulsion. On quantum level that means that electrons get passionate about protons and that their particle interactions is a tale of wooing and rejection.

Oh for fuck's sake


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-17-2011 9:45 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 203 of 297 (626772)
07-31-2011 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Admin
07-31-2011 6:20 AM


Re: Moderator Comment
Science postulates a quark soup at the beginning, and certainly electromagnetic radiation would have been part of that soup.

Quarks preceded electrmagnetic radiation by some distance (as measured by energy scale, rather than the unimaginably small fraction of a second separating them), as the elctroweak symmetry breaking occurs at much lower energy than the quantum chromodynamic scale. And gravity precedes both. So light is actually the last on the scene.


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 Message 200 by Admin, posted 07-31-2011 6:20 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:12 AM cavediver has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 205 of 297 (626775)
07-31-2011 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 10:02 AM


Re: Moderator Comment
The fact is that light would be the first identifiable product by virtue of its transcendent velocity.

No, as I explained above, it is actually the last product. And its velocity was irrelevant as the density was so high that photons couldn't actually travel any measurable distance before colliding.

And we don't measure the universe's age by any forces but exclusively by residual cosmic radiation

The earliest of which was emitted hundreds of thousands of years after the big bang. So that doesn't help you either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:02 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:16 AM cavediver has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 208 of 297 (626783)
07-31-2011 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 10:12 AM


Re: Moderator Comment
Quantumn only works with multiple, countless particles.

No, it doesn't.

It contradicts the premise of a first BANG.

No, it doesn't.

Quarks may be the smallest item known at this juncture of science only.

No, they're not. And the "size" is irrelevant. Quarks don't appear before photons because they're "smaller"

The closure stands with light as the only measurement of both the universe's age and its first identifiable product.

Nope - the neutrino background vastly pre-dates the electromagnetic background, so gives an earlier picture of the Universe. And as described, light is most certainly not the first identifiable product.

I see no credible counter to it, so why fantasize?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:12 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 5:48 PM cavediver has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 209 of 297 (626785)
07-31-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 10:16 AM


Re: Moderator Comment
You are not in good scientist company here.

You're right. There's me, a scientist in the fields of cosmology and theoretical phyaics, and there's everyone else. But don't worry, I don't mind.

f you could look at the BB occuring - you would first see a light.

No, you wouldn't (fogetting for the moment the completely non-sensical concept of being able to look at the BB occuring) as there would be no light. Light has not yet come into being.

If you examine the speed of light, you can work out the age of the universe: that is how the 14B figure is arrived at.

The speed of light obviously has relevance, but no, that is not how we arrive at the 14B figure.

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:16 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 5:41 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 217 of 297 (627202)
08-01-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by IamJoseph
08-01-2011 3:31 AM


Re: Moderator Comment
The first star is estimated to have formed 400K years after the BB point.

Nope - tens of millions of years at the very least

The background cosmic radiation is said to still linger from the BB point, and this is used to calculate the universe age.

Nope - the cosmic microwave background radiation was emiited ~400k years after the Big Bang.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by IamJoseph, posted 08-01-2011 3:31 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by IamJoseph, posted 08-01-2011 7:59 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 218 of 297 (627204)
08-01-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 5:48 PM


Re: Moderator Comment
you are also saying that photons [light particle] being smaller 'predate' quarks. My point.

No, I am most certainly not saying that. Photons are not "smaller" than quarks - such a comparison is essentially meaningless. And quarks and gluons definitely predate photons.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 5:48 PM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by IamJoseph, posted 08-01-2011 8:14 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(2)
Message 280 of 297 (628008)
08-06-2011 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Straggler
08-04-2011 5:40 PM


Re: The creationist scientific theory of the origin of light
Neither phenomenon as proposed takes place inside our universe and neither involves any magic.

You're getting caught up on usage of "Universe". Alfred's use could be phrased "physical existence". What he is saying about magic is not unreasonable. Where he goes wrong is thinking that when we refer to the Big Bang, he assumes that we imagine some "pre-Big Bang" nothingness within which the Big Bang is initiated. This would be magic. As I often repeat, the Big Bang is not "caused", it is simply one end of the Universe. Thinking that it requires a prior-cause is a category error. Cause and effect are simply a result of the casual structure of the space-time of which our Universe is made. To suggest that they should apply to the Universe as a whole (or indeed to the point of the Big Bang) is to ask at what latitude and longitude can we find the Earth.

The Big Bang could of course be embedded in some larger space, as we have in nearly all post-classical scenarios: colliding branes, eternal/chaotic inflation, etc. But this merely pushes out the boundaries of physical existence, and the Big Bang is no longer an origin/boundary/limit.

But whether the Universe has an infinte past or a finite past, two things remain: physical existence does not require a "cause" (in any sense being talked about here), and we still have no clue as to why it is here!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2011 5:40 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
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