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Author Topic:   Encouragement From A Believers Perspective
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 6 of 37 (808206)
05-09-2017 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
05-03-2017 10:11 AM


Re: Two Bible Studies on fear and trust
Phat writes:
A peaceful, successful, and mentally healthy life can not be gained solely through secular psychology---we need our belief and the stories that come with it.
The problem you have Phat is that your premise is just wrong. Billions of people lead content and happy lives without the prop of an imaginary god looking afetr them. I'm one of them.
You live in your own bubble and can't imagine how people outside it live. Western Europe is mostly secular you know. Scandanavia is 80% atheist but has the happiest countries in the world. Relieving yourself from the obvious burden of your conflicting religious beliefs would do you a power of good.
As, for your 'thought for the day' stuff, I'm afraid I couldn't read it. Just preacher's drivel.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 05-03-2017 10:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:19 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 20 of 37 (820494)
09-21-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
09-21-2017 10:19 AM


Re: From "A Tension Of Faith"
Phat writes:
You claim that believers are becoming a dwindling minority and will soon be such, but I estimate that your prognosis is quite a long way off.
I don't claim it, it's a documented fact but it also depends what you consider a 'long way.' The enlightenment was about 400 years ago. At that time almost all of Europe was a believer in the same fundamental way as Faith is. Now those that believe are a minority and their belief has softened to a mostly harmless liberal mush. I'd say that was great progress.
Rationality can still be hopefully discussed between us, however.
Lets take this most recent hurricane, Maria. It devastated Puerto Rico [...] As a believer, I can assure you that many people prayed during that hurricane.
As an atheist I'd say you were almost certainly correct. But so what?
They never saw the hurricane as an act of God...chiefly because most of the believers I know believe that God desires what is best for humans and is not vindicative.
Many believers DO believe that hurricanes and the like are deliberate acts of god, we routinely hear of the zealots claiming it's retribution for stuff like homosexuality and liberalism. But sure, most prefer to believe that god isn't vindictive. (Though it's not obvious from the Old Testament why anyone would think that - other than wishful thinking.)
A hurricane is simply an act of the weather on the planet on which we all live.
Did god not make the forces that make the weather, knowing what random devastation it would cause and didn't he have a better model when he created the Garden of Eden?
I believe that God is not out to punish atheists for not believing and understands you much better than you could even conceive of Him, Her, or It.
Fine, but what you personally believe has no bearing on anything at all does it?
My point regarding the hurricane is that many people prayed---and whether or not their prayers fell upon a void or not is irrelevant.
It's highly relevant. What could be more relevant than whether a supplicant is wasting his time begging for help?
It gave them comfort in something they believe to be greater than themselves...something apart from the hurricane that also was greater than they and which smashed their world into rubble.
Oh, right, it gave them comfort......god as panacea, that's the best you've got?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 10:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 2:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 22 of 37 (820500)
09-21-2017 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Stile
09-21-2017 2:08 PM


Re: From "A Tension Of Faith"
Style writes:
I think this sort of downplays the importance of mental health for any and all humans.
No it doesn't. But because it makes some people feel better is not proof of the existence of god and admitting that it's a panacea demonstrates that.
To those who require it, "god as panacea" is extremely important. They very well could spiral into devastating depression without it.
Sure, but as the false notion of god dissipates, people can no longer rely on the false premise and have to learn to cope with reality. It's leaving home and growing up.
I think they certainly could. But coulda/woulda/shoulda doesn't really matter when faced with a hurricane in the here and now.
People can and will do what they do, that's not the point is it? Here we're looking for what's real, indirect benefits from the imagination is not what we're at.
I find that to be a "very good" and "very important" thing.
And I don't think it's right for anyone to try and take such a thing away from anyone, or even insult it.
I'm not in any position to take it away from anyone, what's happening across modern societies is a realisation that the thing they believed in was a fantasy. It's an inevitable consequence of the advancement of actual knowledge. It's simply growing up and learning how to live an independent life.
And who is insulting anyone?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 2:08 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 3:23 PM Tangle has seen this message but not replied
 Message 25 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 26 of 37 (820571)
09-23-2017 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Stile
09-21-2017 3:29 PM


Re: From "A Tension Of Faith"
Stile writes:
Some people learn to cope with reality by laying their fears upon their imagination.
Like telling someone "it's going to be okay..." when you can't read the future.
You know you don't know.
They know you don't know (maybe).
But it can still help them feel better.
Sure, but you know, so what?
Why is "what's real" so important?
I don't know how to start to answer that - it seems pretty important to know what is real and what is imaginary doesn't it?
Why can't someone else decide to live their life chasing dreams and imagined things?
I don't know, I didn't say that they couldn't.
Maybe "the point" of someone else's life if to specifically gain indirect benefits from their imagination?
Maybe, and maybe there is no 'point' to it.
But I wouldn't stop anyone else from following it if that's what they wanted.
Me neither
I want to do what I want... and I don't want someone to decide I shouldn't be able to do what I want... just because they don't want the same thing.
Me too
In that vein, I don't think I (or you) should be able to decide whether or not someone choosing to follow imaginary things is "right" or not. I don't think that's for you to decide, and I think it cheapens "humanity" or even "intelligence" if you think you should be deciding such a thing.
You seems to have imagined a position I hold that I do not. Where are you getting all this from? People can do what the hell they want within the law, no matter how daft I think it is, and I have no interest in trying to stop them. But I will point out in places like this that I think it's daft.
What I'm saying is that people are dropping their primitive beliefs all across the modern world. They're doing it quite naturally and without anyone forcing them. It's just part of how our societies are advancing, by accumulating real knowledge of the world and abandoning false and superstitious explanations.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 3:29 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 09-23-2017 3:08 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 31 by Stile, posted 09-25-2017 9:15 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 28 of 37 (820586)
09-23-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
09-23-2017 3:08 PM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
Phat writes:
What makes a belief primitive?
A belief in something old and wrong.
Are you saying that all unevidenced belief is primitive or are you saying that the books in religion need updating? Do you think that belief in general is daft?
Primitive refers to something at a very early stage of development. The ancient beliefs like Christianity are the beginnings of mankind's attempts to understand the world around them and think about meaning. To do it they made up children's stories around the campfires. We've moved on, we don't need the silly stories any more.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 09-23-2017 3:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 09-24-2017 10:48 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 10:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 30 of 37 (820609)
09-24-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
09-24-2017 10:48 AM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
Phat writes:
The more secular the world at large becomes, the better a possibility for mass revolution will occur.
Really? I'd say the reverse, the more secular a society becomes the more democratic and evolved its institutions become. The reduction of poverty and improvements in education, health law and order all play to fairer societies.
Would you agree with the above quote and suggest that I have no valid reasons to justify my beliefs as true?
Well that's a complicated way of saying something simple. It's true that some people have a belief in god. It's true that atheists don't. It's true that atheists argue that believers have insufficient evidence to support their belief. But that's why it's called a belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 09-24-2017 10:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 33 of 37 (820686)
09-25-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
NCE writes:
If you model spiritual development with the growth of an individual human, this would put the modern world in their angsty teen years.
A toddler at very best. The enlightenment was only 400 years ago.
I think the modern world will continue to grow and people will realize they shouldn't completely turn their back on spirituality. Once they find the value, they'll start looking into what other/older people have tried to tell us about it all.
Maybe, but it's more likely to be inward looking examining consciousness and feeling rather than outwards to fictional gods.
At face value, the myths do appear childish and unnecessary.
That's because they are!
But I don't think they're actually that early in their stage of development. The problem is that spirituality is awfully short on data and it's hard to make sense of it. Still though, there are rewards and value in it and when people realize that then they aren't going to be discouraged by the difficulty anymore. With the desire to search and learn, you can realize that those old childish stories to have some good wisdom buried within them. That's why they're not worth just tossing out.
There's stacks of wisdom in the biblical stories - some of them at least, but it's got nothing to do with god. You could remove all talk of god from them and the wisdom would remain. That's because all the 'love thy neighbour' stuff is universal. You don't need to be 'spiritual' to appreciate that stuff. But you don't need religion or god to be spriritual at all. It's not something that I have much time for but Sam Harris - one of the four modern atheist - talks about consciouness, meditation and spirituality a lot. No god or religious belief necessary.
Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 10:46 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 11:53 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 35 of 37 (820696)
09-25-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
NCE writes:
In there I found a being that was distinct and separate from my self - I'll be calling it God, but I don't really know what it was.
Let's face it, your a Buddhist with Christian tendancies.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 11:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 12:42 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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