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Author
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Topic: Christianity and the End Times
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 721 of 1748 (838365)
08-20-2018 3:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 720 by PaulK
08-20-2018 2:33 AM
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There is no secret rapture in Matthew 24:36-42 either. It occurs when the Son of Man comes (v39) - which is after the Tribulation (v29-30) The thing is, Matthew 24 gives two different descriptions of His coming. From 29 to 30 Jesus is describing what happens after the tribulation, which is so horrific not many will survive it, so it is very unlikely there would have been any life as usual going on, such as marrying and giving in marriage, which is to characterize the time just before His coming as described in verse 37 as like the days of Noah. What happens right after the tribulation is pretty dramatic and gets pretty loud too, unlike what is happening in the period described from verse 36 tp 42 where life is going on as usual and His coming is a complete surprise for those who are not prepared. This is why it is interpreted that there are two separate comings being described, the second being the rapture, and the first the final coming of Jesus to earth in power and glory with the trumpet sound and so on. I've divided the passage into sections to show the distinctions:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. =================== Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. ========================= Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. So the Rapture is to be like the days of Noah, coming upon us completely by surprise as life is going on as usual, but the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth will follow upon a time of great tribulation when life could not have been going on as usual, and it will come with a lot of fanfare and nobody will be able to miss it. Also, if the Rapture is to come upon us like the days of Noah, when those who were unprepared were swept away in the Flood, the analogy continues in that the Great Tribulation is analogous to the Flood. abe: I am, frankly, terrified for the people who will be left behind. LISTEN UP. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 720 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 2:33 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 722 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 3:57 AM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 723 of 1748 (838367)
08-20-2018 4:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 722 by PaulK
08-20-2018 3:57 AM
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The Second Coming is in two parts, the Rapture and the final coming as conquerer, with the tribulation in between. The parable of the fig tree comes as a pause between the two descriptions. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 722 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 3:57 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 725 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 4:14 AM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 724 of 1748 (838368)
08-20-2018 4:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 722 by PaulK
08-20-2018 3:57 AM
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The first part of His coming is as a Thief in the Night when He takes away His Church and leaves the world completely to the devices of fallen nature governed by Satan through the Antichrist without our interference. I'm sure that will seem like a great blessing at first. Then after you all make a huge mess of things He'll come for good Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 722 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 3:57 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 726 of 1748 (838370)
08-20-2018 4:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 725 by PaulK
08-20-2018 4:14 AM
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You are way underestimating how devastating the Tribulation is going to be.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 725 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 4:14 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 727 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 4:30 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 732 of 1748 (838377)
08-20-2018 10:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 728 by jaywill
08-20-2018 5:19 AM
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I don't mean to be promoting any notion of cowardice or easy escape but Jesus does promise to save some from the "hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth" which surely makes it clear that is the better option. If I should be left behind I would want to be praying for courage and strength the whole time, for me and all those with me because certainly many of us will die some horrific deaths during that time, and if we manage to survive to see the Lord's return it isn't going to be easy. In other words, I don't want to minimize the Tribulation. If Jesus tells us God will shorten it because otherwise nobody would survive it we need to take seriously that it will be far beyond any of the afflictions we soft westerners have had to face. Certainly, developing the courage to go through it would be a great character builder though, so I can be of two minds about this. However, at least out of mercy I nevertheless want to exhort those who are not Christians and those Christians who are living below spiritual par to exert themselves toward the Rapture. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 728 by jaywill, posted 08-20-2018 5:19 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 749 by jaywill, posted 08-21-2018 3:39 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 751 of 1748 (838404)
08-21-2018 3:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 750 by jaywill
08-21-2018 3:41 AM
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I know this sounds crackpot, and perhaps it is, but in the last few weeks I've had this, well, conviction of sorts, that the Rapture is almost here, that it could happen very very soon. If it hasn't happened by the end of September I'll calm down but I keep having something like signs and portents in my own life that I read as its imminence. I know we aren't to know the "day or the hour" but surely we are to be aware of its imminence as it comes closer. For instance we are to encourage one another as we see it approaching. Jesus gives us the parable of the fig tree to suggest that we will know the season at least. Prophecy may be opaque and indecipherable for centuries but just before its fulfillment we should be getting signs that it is near, and more certain understanding of what it is saying. It is this sense of its imminence that has me thinking about the Tribulation period for those who will miss the Rapture, and what I should do to warn people. Of course what I find is that nobody wants to listen, just as "in the days of Noah." Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 750 by jaywill, posted 08-21-2018 3:41 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 759 of 1748 (838417)
08-21-2018 11:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 758 by ringo
08-21-2018 11:45 AM
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In Genesis, the other people didn't get any warning so not wanting to listen doesn't enter into it. They had over a hundred years of warning since it took that long to build the ark. This is figured from the timings of the ages of Noah and his sons somehow. And Noah is called a "preacher of righteousness" and a preacher isn't going to stay silent for over a hundred years while he's building an ark to save people from a coming worldwide Flood. Certainly they knew, but they ignored him. Probably called him a crackpot.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 758 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 11:45 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 763 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 12:22 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 762 of 1748 (838420)
08-21-2018 12:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 760 by Stile
08-21-2018 12:00 PM
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Re: On Our Best Behavior
Well, if it DID happen soon, if the Christians just happened suddenly to disappear from the planet in a mass exodus, what effect do you think it might have on you? Would you just rationalize it away or would it make a believer of you? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 760 by Stile, posted 08-21-2018 12:00 PM | | Stile has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 765 of 1748 (838423)
08-21-2018 12:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 763 by ringo
08-21-2018 12:22 PM
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where is that in scripture, ringo?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 763 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 12:22 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 767 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 12:32 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 766 of 1748 (838424)
08-21-2018 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 764 by Tangle
08-21-2018 12:24 PM
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Re: On Our Best Behavior
Although as I read scripture I see that a great multitude will be saved even through the Tribulation, it's also clear that many ARE going to take the position that the world is a better place without the Christians. (A lot of that will likely come from people who think they are Christians now but aren't, who think we fundamentalists have it all wrong, so they are going to have to believe the bad guys exited while they the good guys are now free to run the world.) Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 764 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2018 12:24 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 769 of 1748 (838427)
08-21-2018 12:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 767 by ringo
08-21-2018 12:32 PM
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OK I reread it and you are right, God ssys clearly He intends to save only Noah and his family and punish the rest of humanity. I'm not sure that means they weren't offered the warning, though, and surely they saw the building of the ark for over a hundred years.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 767 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 12:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 771 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 12:43 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 770 of 1748 (838428)
08-21-2018 12:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 768 by Tangle
08-21-2018 12:37 PM
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Re: On Our Best Behavior
Well, I'll still be convinced that a Rapture of the Church is going to happen because scripture says so, I'll just have to wonder why I was having such a strong sense of its imminence now.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 768 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2018 12:37 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 772 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2018 12:44 PM | | Faith has replied | | | Message 783 by GDR, posted 08-21-2018 3:51 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 776 of 1748 (838435)
08-21-2018 1:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 774 by Stile
08-21-2018 1:10 PM
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Re: On Our Best Behavior
Thanks for giving that a real shot, and well done. One thing people won't be able to imagine though is that there will probably be a lot of converted Jews spread out in the world preaching the gospel, setting up Bible studies and discussion groups and so on. And some of the Christians that didn't make it will at least know enough Bible to be part of that effort. Before the Tribulation gets heated up anyway. And some very interesting things are going to be happening in Israel, which you'll get to watch on the TV.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 774 by Stile, posted 08-21-2018 1:10 PM | | Stile has seen this message but not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 777 of 1748 (838436)
08-21-2018 1:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 775 by ringo
08-21-2018 1:17 PM
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Re: On Our Best Behavior
Thanks to you too. Yes, UFO theories will probably be prominent as explanations. And maybe there will even be demons masquerading as extraterrestrials running around. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 775 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 1:17 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 780 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 1:57 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 778 of 1748 (838437)
08-21-2018 1:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 773 by Phat
08-21-2018 1:08 PM
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Re: On Our Best Behavior
I see you8 also mention the UFO theory. I think you guys are right, that's going to be a big one. Phat, the only people who could possibly go in the Rapture are the same people who will be saved: those who believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for their sins.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 773 by Phat, posted 08-21-2018 1:08 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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