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Author Topic:   Jesus - Wholly Man - Wholly God
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 61 of 105 (862094)
08-31-2019 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Tangle
08-31-2019 2:05 PM


Re: It's the historical term for it
Tangle writes:

You get credit for reading those things but - with the exception of Josephus - they're not historical works. I was asking whether you'd read any historians that weren't also theologians writing about 1st century Christianity.
I haven't btw, but if I was as interested as you are I would have done. If they exist that is.

I looked through my library and I couldn't find one that would really fit the bill. I have read works by people like Dom Crossan and Markus Borg. They have some interesting insights and both deny the bodily resurrection. (Borg unfortunately passed away last year.) I considered their views but frankly their argument boiled down to the idea that they knew it couldn't happen, (people who are dead stay dead) and so any other explanation is preferable. One idea they put out was that just as people claim to have visions of some sort with loved ones after they have passed on. However, that makes no sense of the accounts of Jesus appearing to multiple people at the same time. Primarily for me though, none of the possibilities of what happened that they put forward made any historical sense for the early rise of Christianity.

The point is that and I have done the best I can to read about my faith from as many perspectives as I can. I have found that by looking at Jesus in His historical context, it altered much of what I had previously accepted and so many things fell into place for me.

If anyone knows of any good historical books from that era please let me know.

Incidentally, I have just pre-ordered a new book by Wright entitled The New Testament in Its World: An Introduction to the History, Literature, and Theology of the First Christians

The book I mentioned earlier called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church: The Improbable Rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire was definitely not a book of apologetics even though it was put out by a Christian publishing house. It was very interesting in that it is clear that the early church was not about evangelizing. It was actually primarily a social movement based on Jesus' command to love their neighbours. They were particularly looking to attract new adherents, and those they did attract came because they were attracted to a new way of living based on sacrificial love. They actually had to go through a fairly rigorous process prior to being baptized into the church. In spite of what you may think it was a very well researched historical work.

It is my hope and belief that today's church is inching its way back towards that view.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2019 2:05 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 62 of 105 (862095)
08-31-2019 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Theodoric
08-31-2019 5:26 PM


Re: It's the historical term for it
Theodoric writes:

What ancient languages can he read?

The following is from thr preface of a book outlining Wright's views but not by Wright.
quote:
Tom has spent most of his time in England. He school he focused on the "classics" then spent 3 years at Exeter College in Oxford studying classic, (Greek and Roman) literature leading to a BA. As you can tell he likes stories and older times. In 1971 he added two years of theology to the mix and graduated with a second BA in theology. He studied another four years at Oxford in Anglican ministry and finished with an MA. He then stayed at Downing College in Cambridge as Fellow and Chaplain from 1978 to 1981 and completed his doctorate.

He has taught Greek at the university level and also has Latin. I read somewhere that he also gained fluency in Aramaic as well as some of the European languages but I can't remember the source of that information.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2019 5:26 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2019 7:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 63 of 105 (862096)
08-31-2019 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
08-30-2019 6:28 PM


Jesus' Earthly Limitations
I think I'll go a little further into tis
Faith writes:

Traditional Christology has no problem seeing Jesus as God in human flesh, that's what the term "incarnate" means, it's perfectly standard. He is also the Logos or the Word made flesh, but Jesus IS God, begotten by God, there is no need to get so "careful" about this.

I want to go a little further into this which is one of the main points I was trying to make in the talk, and a point I think we will disagree on. A know that there are Gospel accounts that seem to contradict my point but I do not see Jesus the human being having supernatural knowledge of either the future or of any any life prior to His earthly existence. As an aside I agree with John Polkinghorne, (who first got me thinking about this), when he claims that God does not know the future either as the future is open and not there to be known.

Yes, I believe that Jesus and others gain insight that from their beliefs, (not knowledge), through prayer and the study of the Scriptures, however the response is based on faith. I contend that this was true of Jesus. I suggest that this is clearest in Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane . As an aside, I am not saying by this that the miracles didn't happen, but I would contend that the miracles happened by God the Father responding to the prayers of Jesus.

I outlined at the end of the talk how I see us coming to understand Jesus as God or maybe more accurately as Lord.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 08-30-2019 6:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 7:20 PM GDR has responded
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 7:52 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 105 (862099)
08-31-2019 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
08-31-2019 6:11 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
This subject quickly gets too heavy for me so I can only give a sketch of what I've thought about it, and a link to a page at Blue Letter Bible that says what I've generally thought but a lot more clearly.

I reject the idea that Jesus was in any way ignorant of His divinity while on Earth. Scripture says He "emptied Himself" in order to live life as a man, but that doesn't mean He gave up consciousness of His identity as God, just that He willingly submitted to the limitations of humanity. As a man He had to learn to live as a human being the way we all do, had to learn to walk and talk as a toddler, use His body and grow into that use and so on. But in all that there is no reason to think He stopped being God in any sense or wasn't aware of being God.

To what extent He used His divine powers in the miracles I'd have to read up on more, because as you say it's possible that He could have prayed and God the Father gave the miracle. The incidents themselves give the impression that He simply did the miracles Himself however. I may read further on this and have a better idea of it but for now I'd say I'm not completely sure about how He did these things but that I AM sure He didn't lack the knowledge of being God Himself.

Here's how the commentary at at Blue Letter Bible puts it:

Jesus was still God while He was here upon the earth. However He took upon Himself an additional nature - that of a human. Jesus had a body like other men except it was without sin. He did not set aside any of the attributes that were rightly His. However He voluntarily limited Himself to being a human being. With genuine humanity came certain restrictions. He could only be at one place at a time. He needed to eat, rest, and sleep. He could feel pain, bleed, and die. Before He became a man He had no such restrictions.

Jesus Willingly Humbled Himself
The self-humbling of Christ was not against His will. He willingly took on the limitations of humanity. He never used any of His divine attributes to relieve Himself of the limitations of being a human being.

So the idea is that He was limited as we all are by simply being in a physical human body, and He also limited Himself consciously to live an authentic human life, but that He was always conscious of having the nature of God as well.

When at twelve He goes to the temple to dispute with the rabbis He explains that He must "be about My Father's business." Well he certainly isn't talking about Joseph's business. I guess you could say He was referring to God as His Father in the sense that He's everybody's Fathre, but I think it shows that at that age He knew that His Father was God in a much more direct sense, that He was begotten by God. I'm sure you too could add passages from the scriptures that say pretty much the same thing. It would be very odd if by the age of twelve His parents had not told Him of the circumstances of His birth too, the announcement by the angel and so on.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 6:11 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2019 7:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 68 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 7:53 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6577
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 65 of 105 (862100)
08-31-2019 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by GDR
08-31-2019 5:50 PM


Re: It's the historical term for it
So nothing to show he can read the original sources. It takes more than a B.A. to be able to critically analyze texts in the original Greek and Aramaic. I am not saying he cannot.
I am just saying you have not provided evidence to support your assertions.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 5:50 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 66 of 105 (862101)
08-31-2019 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
08-31-2019 7:20 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
It would be very odd if by the age of twelve His parents had not told Him of the circumstances of His birth too, the announcement by the angel and so on.

And at age 14 when Mary caught him in bed with a little bulge in the covers and a copy of the Turin Papyrus in one hand.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 7:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 10:39 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 105 (862102)
08-31-2019 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
08-31-2019 6:11 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
GDR writes:

Yes, I believe that Jesus and others gain insight that from their beliefs, (not knowledge), through prayer and the study of the Scriptures, however the response is based on faith. I contend that this was true of Jesus. I suggest that this is clearest in Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane . As an aside, I am not saying by this that the miracles didn't happen, but I would contend that the miracles happened by God the Father responding to the prayers of Jesus.

The Blue Letter Bible commentary is quite clear that Jesus lived as a man would, by dependence on God through prayer, and that He did His miracles through the Holy Spirit:

He Was Always Guided By The Holy Spirit

As a human being, Jesus chose to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Scripture speaks of Jesus being filled with the Spirit after His baptism.

And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led about by the Spirit in the wilderness (Luke 4:1).

Consequently Jesus performed His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. He said.

But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Matthew 12:28).

He placed His faith in the Father. He was able to live a sinless life by trusting the Father at all times. Consequently believers are told to "walk as He walked."

The one who says he abides in him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked (1 John 2:6)

This could only be possible if Jesus walked in faith as a human being.

Jesus Is Able To Understand Our Needs

Jesus willingly limited Himself while here upon the earth.

Consequently He understands what happens to humans. The writer to the Hebrews acknowledged.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin (Hebrews 4:15).

Because He has experienced the same problems as humankind He can comfort us. The Bible says that God is the God of all comfort.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3).

Finally we come to the reason why Jesus imposed these self-limitations upon His Person. He did it because of the love of God.

Greater love has no one than this that he lay down his life for his friends (John 5:13).

It was the love of God that caused Jesus to voluntarily humble Himself and lay aside some of the rights that He had as God.

So your view of how He lived as a man is mostly corroborated by all this, only the idea that He had no consciousness of being God is not. There are a couple places in scripture where it is clear He used His omniscience too: as when He told the woman at the well all about her past life, when He recognized the disciple as "having no guile" before He even met him.

Might as well add the Summary:

When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.

When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 6:11 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 68 of 105 (862103)
08-31-2019 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
08-31-2019 7:20 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes:

I reject the idea that Jesus was in any way ignorant of His divinity while on Earth.

I'd just like to focus on this. I don't see Jesus' self understanding as seeing Himself as God. He did however in my view combine two threads out of the Hebrew Scriptures and apply them to Himself.

The first was the arrival of the messiah and the second was the return of Yahweh to the Jews. He certainly saw Himself as the messiah for a multitude of reasons but He also IMHO saw Himself as somehow embodying the return of Yahweh. He clearly demonstrated the He saw Himself as a Temple replacement by forgiving sins. He even talked about the Jews missing the time of Yahweh's visitation. He also talked in seeing Him they were also seeing the Father, and by this, it seems clear to me that He understood that He was embodying the true nature of the Father.

Once again though I don't think that this came to Him supernaturally but simply through prayer and His understanding of Scriptures, which He seemed to have understood in a way that none of His countrymen, (at least that we know of), did at the time.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 7:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 8:24 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 105 (862104)
08-31-2019 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by GDR
08-31-2019 7:53 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
I reject the idea that Jesus was in any way ignorant of His divinity while on Earth.

I'd just like to focus on this. I don't see Jesus' self understanding as seeing Himself as God.

I wish I'd kept track of a series my pastor did in which he showed that Jesus consciously claimed to be God in a great number of ways we don't normally think of. The only one that comes to mind at the moment is where He says, John 17 I think? -- Before Abraham was, I AM."

He did however in my view combine two threads out of the Hebrew Scriptures and apply them to Himself.

The first was the arrival of the messiah and the second was the return of Yahweh to the Jews. He certainly saw Himself as the messiah for a multitude of reasons but He also IMHO saw Himself as somehow embodying the return of Yahweh. He clearly demonstrated the He saw Himself as a Temple replacement by forgiving sins. He even talked about the Jews missing the time of Yahweh's visitation. He also talked in seeing Him they were also seeing the Father, and by this, it seems clear to me that He understood that He was embodying the true nature of the Father.

Well, in order to claim that He is the embodiment of Jehovah (I really don't like the revisionist name Yahweh), He has to embrace such a passage as the one in Isaiah that describes the Messiah as "Wonderful, Counsellor, Almighty God, Prince of Peace," and the one in Jeremiah that describes the Messiah as "God our Righteousness." Both pretty clearly call Him God, implying an identity rather than just a representation.

\Once again though I don't think that this came to Him supernaturally but simply through prayer and His understanding of Scriptures, which He seemed to have understood in a way that none of His countrymen, (at least that we know of), did at the time.

Of course as God He actually authored the scriptures, so He would simply have known them, they didn't even need to "come to Him" as they might to us.

ABE: Meant to address this:

He clearly demonstrated the He saw Himself as a Temple replacement by forgiving sins. He even talked about the Jews missing the time of Yahweh's visitation. He also talked in seeing Him they were also seeing the Father, and by this, it seems clear to me that He understood that He was embodying the true nature of the Father.

"Who can forgive sins but God" is what that passage says, it doesn't impute the forgiveness of sins to the Temple. And of course referring to Himself as the visitation of God He is claiming to BE God, not just represent Him, also in the case of claiming to show the Father through His own Person -- can't accept your reducing that to a matter of showing God simply through His character.

Then there was where He says how He had wanted to comfort Jerusalem but "you wouldn't come to Me" He's clearly saying He's God, not a representation of God.

ABE: Interesting, arguing with you about these things is pretty similar to arguing with a Jehovah's Witness. You don't deny that Jesus IS God of course, but by insisting on His complete ignorance of being God you require me to come up with the same answers I'd have to with a JW.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 7:53 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 09-01-2019 2:14 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 105 (862109)
08-31-2019 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by AZPaul3
08-31-2019 7:39 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Jesus wouldn't misuse the organ He Himself designed to express love.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2019 7:39 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2019 11:13 PM Faith has responded
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2019 11:17 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 71 of 105 (862110)
08-31-2019 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
08-31-2019 10:39 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Not misuse.

Exercise. Practice.

I know you christians think it so but it's really not evil, Faith.

And if god was brought down and was fully human then guess what?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 10:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 11:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6577
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 72 of 105 (862111)
08-31-2019 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
08-31-2019 10:39 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Masturbation is not misuse. It is use.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 10:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 11:20 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 105 (862112)
08-31-2019 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by AZPaul3
08-31-2019 11:13 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations

I should know better than to try to outwit the kid acting up in church.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2019 11:13 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by AZPaul3, posted 09-01-2019 1:02 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 105 (862113)
08-31-2019 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Theodoric
08-31-2019 11:17 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
An understandable sin for fallen humanity, but not use.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2019 11:17 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 75 of 105 (862114)
09-01-2019 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
08-31-2019 11:19 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Have you ever noticed that it resembles the human heart? I think there may be a hint there.

No, I haven't.

Explain it to me, please.

In graphic detail.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 08-31-2019 11:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 09-01-2019 7:09 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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