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Author | Topic: Spiders are intelligent | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
sinequanon Member (Idle past 1209 days) Posts: 331 Joined: |
I study the spiders on the large windows (typically a metre square) round my house. A bug would spend 5 minutes uncontrollably bombarding the window until it blunders into the small web in the corner. The effect of 50 per cent reduction pales in comparison.
Bugs blunder into mirrors in a similar way.
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jar Member Posts: 31796 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Fine, get us a study. Show us that the spider intended that result.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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sinequanon Member (Idle past 1209 days) Posts: 331 Joined: |
If I can find one I will. So far I only relate activities anyone could observe.
Another interesting observation is that only the smaller spiders build their webs on the window. I've noticed that when they get bigger and the web is of comparable size to a window, they build their webs in the open. (Funny, but at this point they also sit boldly in the centre of their web rather than the edge (great, big, fat things out in the open) and they don't seem to get picked off by birds! Even the cats seem to avoid walking through the webs.)
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RAZD Member Posts: 20332 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Sorry, I didn't think I needed to spell it out ... :rolleyes:
Hence the evolved behavior to build across open spaces, perhaps that is why I said: quote: And then noted that both the spider and the bugs could confuse windows and mirrors with open spaces.
Do you think it can? Ever watch one build a web near a window and intentionally use the window pane?
Because the fly obviously sees the window as an open space. Just as the spider does. The fact that the spider never learns to stop building there when the windows are cleaned speaks against intelligence in making that choice. I also find that the number of flies is greater outdoors than indoors, so an intelligent spider would stay outdoors eh? More flies, fewer cleaned windows, higher yield for less expenditure of energy. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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sinequanon Member (Idle past 1209 days) Posts: 331 Joined: |
Yes. How would you determine intention in a spider, apart from subjectively? Spiders build webs (nearly) against windows. I have observed that the ratio of web area to window does not get to 50 per cent. Even though it would seem very convenient, I have never seen a web that filled a whole window. As was mentioned a web > 50 per cent of the window area would be counterproductive, and I have never seen it happen even though it would seem convenient. But webs the equivalent size can be seen in the open. Also, I observe the webs near the wing mirror of my car, tend to be next to, rather than over the mirror. So, I cannot see how the open space thing applies here. Also, there is just as much open space by the wheels for example, but I don't see webs there. Building a small web next to, rather than over, a small mirror greatly increases the effective catchment area, given the behaviour of bugs.
Yes. The webs I observe are outside the window. Being see-through I am able to see from the inside. Enjoy.
(Outside is not cleaned that regularly.) In any case, it is the same with humans. Our intelligent choices can have unintelligent aspects (choosing junk food is still an intelligent choice in the sense people are talking about it here).
But then you'd expect to see some webs that span the whole window. I don't see any.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 986 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Look. A spider's brain is smaller than the head of a pin.
Limits of scale place a ceiling on how flexible an animal's behavior can become, because smaller animals have fewer, not smaller, neurons. Fewer components for a brain means that fewer neurons are available for sensory organs, problem-solving mechanisms, and cognitive/behavioral flexibility. This is a fundamental engineering problem. It limits how complex or flexible those systems can become.
Wrong.
Spiders’ webs
Walking behavior of spider-robot with adaptation for environment information
Wrong. The geometry is not random.
The Role of Behavior in the Evolution of Spiders, Silks, and Webs
Wrong. Chemical Signaling in a Wolf Spider: A Test of Ethospecies Discrimination There are over 5000 papers on chemical signalling. An Analysis of Alternative Mating Tactics of the Jumping Spider Phidippus johnsoni (Araneae, Salticidae) There are over 4000 papers on courtship behavior.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 986 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Are you going to look anytime soon? Or are you going to continue with your armchair biology? I just researched my latest answer in all of 15 minutes.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
I thought this was the strawman.
I certainly never suggested that. But they're all part of the same DNA based life system. When you say that spiders are "hard wired" to be what they are and to do what they do, I agree. I just think that we are genetically hard wired as well.
Isn't the nervous system part of the phenotype? Is there something known in biology that indicates that only mammals can evolve intelligence? Do you think that neurobiologists have an advanced understanding of spiders at this point in time? I'll look around. As for asking me to search for scientific papers to back up my comments on language and the word intelligence, I'm waiting for your scientific definition of intelligence. Remember, if it's an agreed definition amongst scientists, then I'm the one who backs your right for its use on a science thread, and I'll be perfectly happy to agree that spiders are not intelligent according to the scientific usage of the word if that proves to be the case. It won't actually mean much, other than that scientists have decided to give the word a very narrow meaning.
That's actually a rational statement, not an assertion. You could've accuse me of stating the obvious, though. Presumably you mean my assertion that spiders have some level of ability to adapt to new situations, which I probably made elsewhere in the thread. Their webs are constantly being damaged in many different ways. They seem to assess the damage, and make repairs accordingly. Pointing out that they're hard wired to do this is like pointing out that we're hard wired to educate our children, that it's a characteristic of the species. Both processes require intelligence in the non-scientific sense of the word. I gave one of the common definitions of intelligence: "The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge." You don't need scientific papers to fit spiders to that, any more than you need scientific papers to know that they've got eight legs, so if this were a coffee house thread instead of a science thread, I'd have a good case.:)
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 986 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Look. I asked for you to support your assertions. I gave you two sites where you can do your research. Define "the system". I have asked for each of these before. Please stop avoiding the questions.
You know what? I'm holding out despite Sin's refusal to cough up a definition. I still have hope that another Admin will point out that in a science thread, Sin has a responsibility to define intelligence. The name of the topic is "Spiders are intelligent" for pete's sake.
Come on, Blue. You know perfectly well that a dictionary definition is not sufficient. Why on god's green earth would we bother with neuroscience and evolutionary biology if we could just pluck a definition from Webster's and go, "Yup. Spiders fit."
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
I think that if someone wanted to claim that an animal with a brain that exhibits complex behaviour has no intelligence, then that would be the assertion that requires support. Here's an interesting title of a scientific paper for you. Title: Unfortunately, I can't access it. Now, let's have that concensus scientific definition of intelligence, shall we? (I agree with you that sine should offer definitions). I really need this mysterious scientific definition of intelligence in order to see if I agree with you or not.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 986 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Oh for feck's sake, Blue. 1883?
Did you look at Message 96?
Well, perhaps an Admin pop in tomorrow.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
:o :laugh: I didn't notice the date, just laughed at the title and put it in. Sorry about that.
Yes. But notice that I'm not using their basic web building instincts as an example of flexible behaviour, but rather their ability to identify unpredictable damage and repair it. I also agree entirely that small brains severely limit flexibility, but that doesn't mean zero flexibility or zero intelligence. Remember, I'm the first to agree that they won't get by as intelligent if we use a narrow definition, which is why we need to define the word for the purposes of the thread.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 986 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
I'm not sure why this is a problem. Damage is just a break in the strand (or some such). Why wouldn't the weaving "program" not suffice?
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
In a way, I agree that it's part of the program, but it appears that the spiders are programmed to improvise what appear to be intelligent solutions, and this raises the question of whether or not a bit of "intelligence" has been included in the program. Have a read of the link that I put in earlier to this spider enthusiast. Not the first bit, but where he describes two web repairing incidents. http://www.spiderjoe.com/journal/the-intelligent-neoscona-crucifera The thing is that all animal intelligence, presumably, must start from "programs". If, as in our ancestry, the organism evolves the ability to innovate, then can't that be seen as the result of a complex and "clever" step in the evolution of the program. Isn't it hard to define a point when animals can be seen as biological automatons, and when they start thinking for themselves?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 986 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
We must be talking past one another. To build the web, spiders use gravity and the direction of light. To repair the web they do the same thing. I read the link. No surprises there. Damage repair is identical to web building. How is it different? How is doing a second time what they did the first time improvisation? Edited by molbiogirl, : sp
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