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Author Topic:   Something From Nothing?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 15 of 124 (76348)
01-03-2004 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-30-2003 4:06 AM


Phatboy
You state.
If the Big Bang theory is true, answer these questions:
1) How did something come from nothing. This means, how did matter come from non matter as an original cause? For the Creation theory, the question boils down to this question: Which came first? Creation(matter) or a Creator?
I am sorry but for the creation theory do you have an explanation of how God created something from nothing that explains things?
Where is it written in stone that the universe came from nothing?Take a moment to consider what it means to say that[in your humble opinion]nothing ever once existed. It is a logical paradox.Nothing once existed.Three simple words and the first and last contradict one another.
Things are not so cut and dried when it comes to the origin of the universe is it? Science can wind the clock back and I will give a little excerpt from this web site.
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/planck_time.html
Planck Time :
The characteristic linear dimension is given as a certain combination of the three most fundamental constants of nature: (1) Planck's constant h (named after the German physicist Max Planck, the founder of quantum physics), (2) the speed of light c, and (3) the universal gravitational constant G. The combination, called the Planck length (Gh/c3)1/2, equals roughly 10-33 cm, far smaller than the distances to which elementary particles can be probed in particle accelerators on the Earth.
The energies needed to smash particles to within a Planck length of each other were available to the universe at a time equal to the Planck length divided by the speed of light. This time, called the Planck time (Gh/c5)1/2, equals approximately 10-43 second. At the Planck time, the mass density of the universe is thought to approach the Planck density, c5/hG2, roughly 1093 g/cc . Contained within a Planck volume is a Planck mass (hc/G)1/2, roughly 10-5 g. An object of such mass would be a quantum black hole, with an event horizon close to both its own Compton length (distance over which a particle is quantum mechanically "fuzzy") and the size of the cosmic horizon at the Planck time. Under such extreme conditions, spacetime cannot be treated as a classical continuum and must be given a quantum interpretation.
So here we can follow the path back through time to an instant when the age of the universe was [10 * -43] seconds old and everything in the universe You ,I, Alpha Cetauri, the most distant quasars EVERYTHING was contained in a volume of space I believe was on the order of [10 * -35] meters.An atom is only on the order of [10 * -10] meters.
Check out this site and you can get an idea of the implications of this.
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/...ava/scienceopticsu/powersof10
The point of this is to show that science is hugely descriptive and unveils a rich tapestry of connections between the extremely small and the staggeringly immense.By comparison the Bible and the God it portrays are poor children stories without much imagination.

...people today are so accustomed to pretentious nonsense that they see nothing amiss in reading without understanding, and many of them at length discover that they can without difficulty write in like manner themselves and win applause for it. And so it perpetuates itself.
G. A. Wells, 1991

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-30-2003 4:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 01-03-2004 5:31 AM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 18 of 124 (76365)
01-03-2004 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
01-03-2004 5:31 AM


Re: Something From Nada
Phatboy
In response to your question
What force caused simple non living elements to become complex (hopefully) thinking systems such as ourselves?
The electromagnetic force is most likely the best candidate to be considered as the means by which conscious thought propagates.Alterations induced on the brain by instruments which disrupt the normal electrical pathways result in changes in the brain and in our thought processes. If you have ever been in a fight and caught a shot upside the head you are aware of this phenomena.
I believe you may also be hinting at what possible means do chemical elements combine to allow for life to exist. Of course we do not yet know.But since we are made up of these elements it seems safe to bet that the way in which these elements combine under the influence of atomic forces does allow for this to happen.Is there some force that you are aware of that science does not take into account? Do you have evidence that allows you to make the otherwise unnecessary additonal assumption of God? Remember that in order to bring God into the picture you must give at least some way of determining HOW God operates on the world. That is to say, what 'force' does he use to accomplish His work. Why can we find no evidence of such manipulation?
You also make the following point.
For the sake of our discussions, I won't claim that Absolute(God) must exist. I will only say that He can exist.
How can He exist?As in your something from nothing arguement you make assertions that you do not explain. Ask yourself What does it mean to say something exists? Do we not base existence upon our own existence? Of course we do. Now we are creatures of flesh and blood and a lot more.But the basic fact remains our existence is based on matter and the interaction of that matter in complex ways according to simple laws.Does God operate in the same way?What is He composed of. Spirit? What is spirit? Is it something actual or is it a convenient means of avoiding the issue of explaining direct questions of God's existence?
It is not the assertion of a God that is the issue but the lack of rigor in putting together a case to substantiate the existence of God. Is this clear? If you cannot then we must relegate the concept to the land of fairies and other such whimsical thoughts.Just because we can imagine them does not mean they have an existence. It just means we have no way of proving them.

...people today are so accustomed to pretentious nonsense that they see nothing amiss in reading without understanding, and many of them at length discover that they can without difficulty write in like manner themselves and win applause for it. And so it perpetuates itself.
G. A. Wells, 1991

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 53 of 124 (78312)
01-13-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Infinity
01-13-2004 8:58 AM


Re: space exists?
Infinity
Now let's for the moment assume that this God cannot be put in a testtube because we are unable to say anything of him, as we are far less intelligent than he is.
How do you assume something about God if we are unable to say anything of him?

"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Infinity, posted 01-13-2004 8:58 AM Infinity has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 63 of 124 (78547)
01-14-2004 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Itachi Uchiha
01-14-2004 9:10 PM


jazzlover there iss an article at Scientific American.
We're Sorry - Scientific American
That gives the idea behind it however the actual understanding of it is much deeper to be sure.

"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 01-14-2004 9:10 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 66 of 124 (78605)
01-15-2004 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by RingoKid
01-15-2004 12:47 AM


Re: devoid of morality
RingoKid
You know, this kind of statement
seems a lot of scientists don't have a lot of faith in each other's theories
seems to pop up from time to time and I am going to ask you what you mean by it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by RingoKid, posted 01-15-2004 12:47 AM RingoKid has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 71 of 124 (78752)
01-15-2004 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Abshalom
01-15-2004 8:33 PM


Re: Displacement of Nothing
Taco
How about giving this site a try and see if it helps or screws you up totally. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/.../astro/bbang.html#c1

"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 73 of 124 (78957)
01-16-2004 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taco
01-16-2004 2:56 PM


Re: Displacement of Nothing
Taco
Sorry.I see my error. If Abshalom is alert perhaps he can get hold of the link and we can continue.
I am curious what the balloon analogy is about.

"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Taco, posted 01-16-2004 2:56 PM Taco has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Abshalom, posted 01-17-2004 12:56 AM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 75 of 124 (79012)
01-17-2004 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Abshalom
01-17-2004 12:56 AM


Re: Displacement of Nothing
Abshalom
LOL do not worry if you find these hard to wrap your brain around. It is the same for everybody and that is why the mathematics is helpful. I am abysmally poor at math and I am presently struggling to gain a foothold on the calculus and other items I need in order to start really understanding the dynamics of the issue.
It is indeed difficult to "see" the physical process at work without it since our very human tendency is to relate it to familiar things by way of analogy. I am presently purchasing the three book set Feynman Lectures on Physics to help as the author is good at making the connection clearer.
I believe that in another post earlier last year I introduced the balloon analogy in a discussion with NosyNed. However the use of the balloon was to illustrate how the galaxies get farther away with time. So imagine it this way.Think of an ordinary balloon [deflated] covered with spots of black ink to represent galaxies.Now in your head have the balloon begin to expand. This represent the passsage of time.Now expand the balloon rapidly through time and watch the galaxies get further and further apart with time, now in your mind let the ballloon pop but keep the image of the galaxies expanding.Since time is essentially what was represented by the balloon it is not necessary to keep it.
As with all simple analogies it is used to give understanding to one aspect of the dynamics of the big bang. It needs to be kept in mind that there are actual motions in the universe that are not covered by this and so you must allow it to be adjusted and in some situations abandoned as you delve farther into the complexities of the universe.I hope this can help.Have a great day.

"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Abshalom, posted 01-17-2004 12:56 AM Abshalom has not replied

  
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