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Author | Topic: Noah's Flood and the Geologic Layers (was Noah's shallow sea) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
In order to be a shallow sea, it could not have been deep. LOL. Actually, the evidence comes from the types of marine deposits found in the region. These include beach sands, oolitic carbonate rocks and other pieces of evidence that indicate nearshore environments. Some regions (such as the St. Francois Mountains appear to never have been inundated by the shallow seaways. Of course, these observations don't fit the global flood model of Walt or any other ye-creationist.
Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Yes, funny thing that Walt requires something of his opponent (a Ph.D. in applied or basic science) which he does not possess. He's an engineer. Not only am I qualified to debate Walt, he has held onto a signed agreement from me for over 4 years now. If the debate takes as long as waiting for Walt to choose an editor, the debate may never happen. Before this thread takes off in the wrong direction, I will simply point out that my position on this is adequately explained at Walt Brown and I'll not comment further. Lastly, you should be careful in your answers no matter who you are replying to.
quote: JM: What? You were expecting people to lie to you?
quote: JM: Yup, and if it was the flood of Noah, I would expect deep marine deposits and lots of chaos in the fossil record. Unfortunately, there are not marine deposits found everywhere and the fossil record is well-ordered in a manner that cannot be explained by the usual creationist excuses (hydrodynamic sorting). Unfortunately, no creationist has never defined the strata marking the pre, syn and post flood deposits and so they can avoid uncomfortable evidence like paleosols, glacial deposits, aeolian deposits, fossil termite mounds and bee hives all of which should not be found in the midst of a global flood. Do you want to be the first creationist EVER to answer the following questions? a. Where can a geologist find, on a global basis, the pre-flood/flood boundary? You will not find a continent-by-continent listing of formational names and type sections for this boundary in the creationist literature. b. Where can a geologist find, on a global basis, strata laid down during the peak of the global flood (i.e. globally correlatable strata all deposited under water)? You will not find a continent-by-continent listing of formational names and type sections for these rocks in the creationist literature. c. Where can a geologist find, on a global basis, the flood/post-flood boundary? You will not find a continent-by-continent listing of formational names and type sections for this boundary in the creationist literature. To be fair, creationists have a little more leeway in defining this boundary since the flood waters receded over a slightly longer time interval, but it still should be possible to provide considerable detail.
quote: JM: If you look at the list of people acknowledged in Ben Gadd's book I think your question will be answered. Yes, there are deep deposits in addition to shallow deposits as one would expect in a normal marine environment with basins of varying depths. The problem for you is the lack of these deep marine deposits everywhere along with the complete lack of marine deposits in regions supposedly covered by the flood. Of course, until you define when/where the flood occurred in a comprehensive geologic model, you can always find some weasel room. You willing to contribute something in-depth based on your own thoughts or are you content to uncritically cut-and-paste material from Walt's book? We've all seen his book and would much better appreciate some intelligent original thought from creationist posters. Are you willing? Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: You should heed your own warnings!
quote: JM: No, but we also wouldn't expect to find desert deposits, paleosols and evidence for grounded glaciers.
quote: JM: You were not careful. Name ONE geologist who has claimed they were swimming around for millions of years? Creationists are the ones who claim long life spans.
quote: JM: You have evidence that they are not glacial deposits? How do you explain these features in your 'model'?
quote: JM: Umm, what the he?? are you rambling on about? I thought you were going to give careful answers? That includes making your answers coherent.
quote: JM: In a global flood? How exactly do you preserve fine structures like these in a global flood?
quote: JM: It's your model. When did the flood end in your model? That's why I asked you to define limits so we can examine your flood model in some detail. Anyone can handwave vague assertions away. Do you have any original thought in that head of yours that can answer the questions I ask?
quote: JM: Now that's interesting. Petroluem companies (who are all about getting rich) don't give a rats patoot about the model they use so long as it brings results ($$$$). If the flood model is such a superior explanation for the sedimentary deposits in the world, why is it that they use the old earth evolution to find the oil? Now, back to the real question. Your ye-creationists have had 200+ years to create a detailed model that would answer the questions I asked. Why have they not come close?
quote: JM: How about the termite nest shown above? How about these?
quote: JM: Neither does Walt or any other creationist! 200 years of work and nothing.
quote: JM: Remember your promise to be careful? There is no such thing as a fossil index. Is this how you pay attention in class? What fish did you catch that is an index fossil? Be specific, genus species.
quote: JM: Only if you close your eyes, ears and yell 'na-na-nana'.
quote: JM: It's not that they have not been found, it's that they don't exist and/or desert deposits, glacial deposits and paleosols are found in their stead. Remember your promise to be careful in your answers? Specifics would be a good place to start with your promise.
quote: JM: So is every creationist glad to argue in handwaving non-specifics. The flood falls apart when you look at details. Is this a tacit admission on your part that you are not, in any shape or form, ever going to document specific data to support your model?
quote: JM: What phantom column? Is this something you read on Walt's page and you swallowed it hook, line and sinker without checking facts for yourself? In your own words, explain how the geologic column was developed and how it is used in modern geology. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Are you serious? In a global flood? Gimme a break.
quote: JM: Purely idiotic statement. I am glad you have backed off.
quote: JM: I asked you to explain these features first.
quote: JM: Don't be facetious. Where do I find the evidence for these flood deposits. Be specific and provide evidence to support your age claims.
quote: JM: What type of rock? What are the features in the rock? Be specific.
quote: JM: That's no excuse if you are trying to overturn a paradigm. However, it's also a tacit admission that they are not doing science. I agree.
quote: JM: The age is irrelevant. How do they fit into a global flood. You claim the ages are wrong, but provide nothing but ipse dixit arguments.
quote: JM: I'm a bible believer. I believe the bible to be a book about salvation. You seem (without ever defending your position with facts) to think it is a scientific textbook.
quote: JM: you caught a coelacanth? I'm impressed. 1938. Wow, that was a recent reference. Can you document that the coelacanth is an index fossil claim with a scientific reference?
quote: JM: Disturbs me? Is this your weak attempt at a rhetorical argument? LOL. The problem is not mine, it's ours. Why would we expect desert deposits, paleosols and glacial deposits in the Noachian flood? We are all noticing that you are not answering direct questions. You remind me of my two year old hiding under his blanket and thinking no one knows where he is. As adults, we humor him. Do you want us to pretend the same with you?
quote: JM: You avodided the question. What is 'phantom' about the column?
quote: JM: Good, it only took you reflecting on a half a dozen of your own posts to figure that out. Now, if we can just get you to figure out how to think on your own and defend your idea with some facts, we'll have made some progress!
quote: JM: Not just that. It also refers to making up data in order to support your own lack of faith. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Don't play stupid. You won't define when the flood happened. I show you desert deposits and ask you if they are flood. You give no answer and seemingly assume that deserts in the flood are no problem. If this is your logic, who am I to even try and discuss this further??
quote: JM: I asked you to be specific. I asked you a series of pointed questions meant to elicit a scientific framework for the flood. All I get is vague assertions including (amazingly) that deserts are to be expected during a global flood. Do you have data, or is your entire argument based on vagaries?
quote: JM: Why should I spit out the answer? You've asserted there was a flood. You've asserted (sans evidence) that the global flood is supported by the geologic record and yet, when shown a figure easily identified by a freshman geology student, you plead ignorance?
quote: JM: Would Jesus speak in a language understood by the Jews? Did Jesus speak in parables? Did Jesus say "The earth is 6000 years old and the global flood is dated to 4000 years ago"? Please cite scriptural support for this assertion and follow that up with a evidence supporting your ipse dixit assertion that all scripture is true.
quote: JM: yes. I am saying that Walt is misinformed and I am saying that you are lying at the worst and being coy at the best.
quote: JM: I've heard this claim made by mindless puppets of young earth creationists. I've never heard them support this with evidence. You willing to be the first? Try to do so without copying lies from Walt Browns sites. Explain it in your own words.
quote: JM: I am a scientist. I get paid for thinking outside the box. As far as parroting the party line that's all you've done. You've uncritically repeated stuff you've read on walt brown's website. You've provided absolutely no evidence that you are able to think for yourself. Do you have such a capability?
quote: JM:How would you know? Walts book is nearly all false, but you don't even comprehend the basics of what he is talking about. Anytime you are asked to provide specifics and a scientific argument, you dodge the questions. Can you think for yourself or not? Show us by defending ONE of your assertions with scientific data.
quote: JM: How about starting by learning the correct terminology? How would you tell if it was from a retreating or advancing glacier? How does this fit into the global flood model? What is the global flood model (r.e. my original 3 questions about correlation and definition of the flood)? CheersJoe meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: For the geologists among the crowd. We just had a seminar given by Terry Quinn of USF (South Florida). One of the more interesting things in his lecture (on coral record of El nino) is that they found aragonite to be much more stable in the corals they were investigating than the 'traditional' ideas. Now, he was talking Holocene, not Precambrian. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
It's funny what you pick and choose from a book. For example, why did you not mention the following:
quote: JM: Hardly sounds like a global flood to me, but then let's continue in full context (also page 83 of the 2000 edition)
quote: JM: Hardly the makings of a global flood. Gadd then goes on to say "What caused the jumps in sea level? This is still unknown". Actually, we have a darn good idea as to what caused the changes in sea level (http://gondwanaresearch.com/hp/hogfinal.pdf). Now, let's compare the above description to Walts' description of the flood:
quote: quote: ..then we have plates moving around at incredible speeds all the while, the Rocky Mtns continue to grow reefs and then deposit thin layers of shale, grow a new reef etc. The stories don't mesh! Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
Anyone calculated the energy release of 'ten billion' hydrogen bombs? LOL, I think I missed that quote. Oooh I just did this. A conservative estimate is 8.4 x 10^14 tJ (tera-joules). FYI tera=10^12 joules and 1 joule is equivalent 1 Watt of power generated for 1 second. 1 calorie=4.18 Joules. So, the equivalent is 2 x 10^27 calories. Noah has a problem.
Cheers Joe Meert [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 02-09-2004] [This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 02-09-2004]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: This is typical of youth. They argue strongly and with passion even if they lack a clear understanding about the topics they argue. The professional geologists on this board are viewed with disdain as unthinking servants to evolution. I have a little more of a soft spot for youthful exuberance and ignorance since I was guilty of the same offenses in my own youth. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
That's cute, now can we return to the topic of this thread? Exactly what geologic layers can be correlated on a global basis that mark the peak flood sequence (i.e. all underwater). If you don't like that, you can answer "Where is the globally correlatable strata marking the pre-flood, flood boundary"? If you don't like that you can answer the question about the globally correlatable strata marking the end of the flood.
Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
You mean they aren't everlasting?
Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: It's 'safe' to say so only in ignorance. Do you have evidence to support this concjecture, or is it just conjecture? Before proceeding, am I correct in assuming that you feel that all sedimentary strata from Cambrian through Mesozoic are flood strata? Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: This assumes there was a 'pre-flood' world. This argument from you has gotten so circular that I'm afraid you've even forgotten what you are saying. In order to have a 'pre-flood' world, there must have been a flood, yet, we've gotten nothing but a suite of vague assertions that a flood happened and no evidence to support it. Everytime someone asks a a question, you make some unsupported vague assertion. No evidence, just some scenario you or Walt Brown has invented without any supporting data. I have also reached the conclusion that you are probably a teenage troll. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: I'm betting mid teens. Cheers Joe Meert
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
Some believe it because Walt Brown said it happened.
Cheers Joe Meert
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