for any of the anti-porn crowd

PG, If my daughter wants sex with more than one man who the F*** are YOU to moralise? What's the harm assuming it is consensual?Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

I think I've related a couple of anecdotes of my being "shocked", even as a jaded pro-porn american, when I witnessed the exposure of kids to porn in Europe. Not that I thought it was harmful, just never realizing there were societies that felt sex was natural enough that it didn't need to be hidden away.But let me share some more. I am now living in a "redlight district". In addition to the kids that live here, and the ones that travel through here normally, sometimes schools seem to trek them through.So far I have seen (at least twice) whole school groups stopped in front of the sex store windows looking at the completely XXX covers (I don't think they have DS vids there, but everything else is) and sex toys.Even the parents and teachers are laughing and having an okay time. Some even organized goofy pictures of the kids standing next to the windows.This is a nation with one of the lowest STD and unwanted pregnancy rates among youths. There are also less sex crimes here.So where is the damage that people keep claiming exists and necessitates kids be kept free of sexual imagery? It makes no sense.Actually I was also surprised to find a children's day care center right among the windows of prostitutes and a sex cinema. It's like hooker, hooker, day care with kids, hooker, sex cinema (with graphic displays out front), hooker, hooker, etc etc... I did a triple take on that one.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh, mark, mark, mark.What about your duty to keep your daughter unsoiled until you pass her off to her husband? Remember, she is going to be someone else's property eventually, so you can't be lax in controlling her behaviour.

Your comments are brief, so it's hard to tell, but I wonder if you aren't confusing fantasy desires of the mind for purposes of sexual stimulation with reality. Do you believe sexual fantasy images themselves are vile, even if just a drawing, or only when carried out in real life?--Percy

I'm glad you challenge this Holmes. I get tired of hearing the 'to protect the kids' excuse. I recall that when I was a kid I was extremely interested in sex and sexual images - like every other boy I knew going through puberty.At age 12 I remember my parents allowed me to subscribe to Playboy. I, and most of my friends at the time, would have gladly engaged in sexual activity with girls.Now that I am much older it seems almost shocking that a 12-year-old or 14-year-old would engage in sex - until I stop and think back to remember what being 12 was really like. I think people tend to glorify their youth and ascribe more innocence to it than there really was.Yeah at ages twelve and thirteen playing D&D, reading comics, and playing frisbee were pretty important things, but so was sex - it's just that we couldn't get any. We may be pretty naive at that age, but we are becoming adults, and sexuality is part of our adulthood.Well what about nine and ten-year-olds then? I don't know. Are many children even that interested in sex between the ages of 5 and 10? I have read some things to suggest that, in general, children in that age range are not very sexually motivated. Just because pornography is available, does that mean young kids will be interested in it as anything more than the act of doing something 'naughty' that might get them into trouble with their parents?This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 04:36 PM

Screw that, those bastards will have to kill me and take my virgin daughter as property by force just like the Jews did the Midianites!This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 04:39 PM

The subject is porn, which I believe has little to do with sex and how beautiful it can be between two people. I fantasize about my lover all the time, the things I will do to give pleasure, and how deep I can go into my imagination to bring to my bed tenderness and passion and lust and wanting more. My lover would do the same. I don't believe some hapless creatures on some screen or in pics are much inspiration, certainly not for examples.
'Oh, darling, this feels good' - 'yeah, I saw a porn film (etal), they were doing it so I thought I might try it on you, honey!'

Thanks, in my opinion fear of sex (especially sex as it intersects with children) is THE modern witchhunt.Someone's gotta stand up and defy sheer madness. That was one of my big problems understanding where these people were getting off talking about kids like they were some sort of separate species.They are us damn it and I KNOW almost all the kids I was around (and I moved around a lot) were sexual beings too. Often confused, and usually pent up frustrated, but sexual nonetheless.Certainly I was. This is an interesting question. I don't know either. I know that I and many other kids I knew were sexually curious before 10. My earliest sexual memories are at age 7, and I have heard some people claim they became aware of being gay (or attracted to the same sex) at this time.I had a girlfriend that was in daycare and nanny type work and she said that they were instructed that they would see "sexual exploration" behavior from just about all ages... and she often had stories of what she and others had sun into.I think the difference is that pre-pubescents are not MOTIVATED by sex in the same way. It is just curiosity about parts and pleasure. They are amoral and will do just about anything for a short period of time before they move on to other things that grab their attention.As real socializing and eventually hormones make their way into the lives of kids, they become more motivated to seek out what they know to be sexual. So where they start as just curious (as they are about anything), eventually they make pointed forays into sex.But that's dimestore anecdotal conjecture. I'd love to see some research. Anyone?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Way off Pecos. This is my thread and I defined porn as it will be treated in this thread. Expression of this very thing (even to your lover) would be porn, according to the definition I have going in this thread.I get that you do not like the state of modern and mass consumed porn. Fine, this thread is to examine what would constitute good expressions of sexuality that heightens sexual arousal or appreciation of one's (or a couple's) sexuality.There is appreciation of sexual beauty in the Bible. It is literal rather than visual, but there is no prohibition on drawing the human figure in Xianity. So what is allowed in that way?Could one create a movie or a painting or a photo representing the song of Solomon? Are we restricted to viewing only the Song of Solomon till the end of time?Deal with the point of the thread please, instead of repeatedly beating a dead horse.This message has been edited by holmes, 06-28-2004 05:22 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Man, have you been watching the wrong porn.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

quote:

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What evidence provides an argument that children are harmed in some way by exposure to sexual imagery of any kind, especially to a degree that it necessitates their "protection" by laws or other mechanisms?

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I may just be a prude, but I think it also comes down to the state of sex education within our (USA) society as well. Kids tend to mimic what they see, and I would not be surprised to hear of kids trying to reenact what they see within pornography. Or option B, it is just a relative moral standard which I learned from my parents and elders.

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Because you have stats showing that models in porn have more issues than in careers outside of porn? Or is that just a stereotype?

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It may very well be a stereotype. However, let's see if you agree with the following: actors within the porn industry have a higher occurence of drug abuse than the general public. I tend to think so. It may not be the actual acting that takes them down the wrong road, but instead it may be drug abuse. Or, like you said, it could just be a stereotype. Imagine if they installed the same "zero tolerance" drug policies combined with random drug testing that many of the rest of us are subject to at our jobs. Methinks a few might piss positive.

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The subject is porn, which I believe has little to do with sex and how beautiful it can be between two people. I fantasize about my lover all the time, the things I will do to give pleasure, and how deep I can go into my imagination to bring to my bed tenderness and passion and lust and wanting more. My lover would do the same.

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Sorry, a question came to mind that you may find offensive, so don't feel compelled to answer. If someone videotaped you and your lover doing what you fantasize above, would you consider this porn?

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I don't believe some hapless creatures on some screen or in pics are much inspiration, certainly not for examples.

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But some people do find inspiration for their sex lives by what they see on the screen. You still haven't shown why you moral standards should be applied instead of someone elses.

Interesting question. To truly explore it, how would you define 'abuse?' It would help me if you define it a bit more. Does occasional use count as abuse? What about any use of a controlled substance? E.g. if I enjoy using an opiate once or twice a year, am I an abuser? How many times must I use the drug per month, or what percentage of my income per month must I spend on said drug to be an abuser?

1) You were a kid. Would you have done anything you saw in a porno mag just because you saw it?2) Let's say you would... what would be the problem? Unless it was violent rape porn, I am uncertain what negative impact that experience (or attempted experience) would have on you.If you are about to mention STDs and pregnancy, that IS an issue of education. And it is needed whether there is porn or not. I knew kids messing around well before they even knew porn existed.And as I already mentioned, in countries where kids have relatively free access to porn and sex ed, studies have shown the lowest levels of everything people say will blow up in the kids faces. I think this is what underlies most of your phobia, but that's okay. The key is to think through it. If you want to prevent your kids from seeing such things because it makes you feel better then I don't think there is anything wrong with that. But do you need to extend that feeling to other people's families and other kids,The evidence is just not there to support you fears. So why not stand up and admit it is your personal feeling and good for you, while standing up for other people's rights to allow access as they feel is right?Frankly, the less the government gets involved with people's lives, especially their sex lives, and still more the sex lives of kids the better. If you go down to ANY place where "actors" or "art students" hang out, I'll give you any odds that you'll get the same percentage.If you go down to the local factory (pretty much any blue collar work space) and It'll be the same thing, and the crummier the money you may even beat that found in porn.Generally people in porn will be the type ready to buck society's rules, or those that are so far out of them they just don't care. So yeah there may be more people involved in drugs than say your local bank office.But drug use does not automatically mean drug problem (another myth), and drug problem does not automatically mean it is the employer's fault or responsibility. I would also wager that those in the porn industry that are heading into problems (especially with drugs) had such problems before they entered.It's been handy for some to scapegoat the industry but it just ain't true. My gf is completely drug free... which is hilarious since she comes from and we now live in a drug mecca. We just don't feel the temptation, and it hasn't been there on shoots either.We've seen some people on drugs, and some with real drug problems. But I've seen just as many (perhaps more) outside the industry.That said, I still think people should care, even if they are not responsible for the problem an employee might have. Especially in porn (where drugs can add risk to sexual health) it is important for employers to promote drug free or drug responsible behavior.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

lol, indeed!