for any of the anti-porn crowd

your question looks easy - what are you looking for in an answer.

what is it? Intellectual porn? Naughty thoughts?
I don't think porn happens until those thoughts are acted.

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Cactus and Scrub
and yellow grass

I get that your'e being honest and upright so I'm not really upset with what you say, even if I have a bit of the "here we go again" feeling. I am with you on this 100%. Well almost.Porn should not be sent out to children, whether they request it or not. And porn should not be sent out as spam at all. The former should only be done if... as Custard's extremely nice parents did... parents request it. The latter is not only annoying, it really does cut through most reasonable defenses a parent might want to put up.None of this has to do with believing any kid would be harmed, but absolutely agreeing it is up to the parent (or anyway we should support diversity of sexual norms) to set norms for their kids, and we should respect that.Of course the converse is also true. I also believe we shouldn't be restricting society for the lowest common denominator. There should be allowances for reasonable attainment of porn by adults (and kids whose adults let them) as well as its production and sale (thus not relegating them to industrial areas with painted over windows).I'm also pretty upset that a thing like Jackson's nipple can lead to such censorship. That is going too far the other way. Yes, this is what the kind of story people want to hear. Thus that is what you get to hear.Watch the show Family Business or Pornstar (the Ron Jeremy Doc) to get a bit more accurate picture of what people's lives are like.Or look around you. Porn iz people too. Exception. I can't speak for what it was like in the 70's or 80's though. However from what I've read on the subject, the times that John Holmes lived through was a bit different.You have to remember it was mainly film. Well actually it started as all film. That meant production costs were much higher (unless it was shot 8mm) which means people with real money had to be behind it. These could be crooks as well as eccentrics.On top of that it was persecuted. Even through the 80's people in the biz were getting arrested almost routinely. Thus it pushed more of US porn industry into the criminal elements.This means people at that time (70's through 80's) did have more dealings with shady characters, or were themselves likely to be shady characters. But that is percentage and should not be used to paint the whole industry, just a recognition that stats have changed for the better all over the place.I don't personally know what JH's story was. From what I do know, he ended up moving into coke and out of the business entirely, before being consumed by the drug world.I would note that this is the same story we hear about many child stars in regular Hollywood. Perhaps fame is a bigger problem than porn.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Just truth, is all.You say that "an 'everything goes' society cannot last, it never has in the past." So I ask, what society has lasted?Societies come and go. It's the nature of history. Whether the attitude is 'everything goes' or not seems kind of irrelevant.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

You should see "Johnny Wadd: The John Holmes Story." It's a documentary of his life: pretty much the classic story of a young boy from American heartland who gets recruited in the bathroom for 'tasteful erotica photos,' and spirals downward into drug-hazed involvement in crime, murder, and AIDS.Great film though. Much better than Wonderland with Val Kilmer.

Rather than think of physical arousal think of mental -- having thoughts of the epiphany eureka kind that fills one with the ultimate high. Very seductive.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

not enough......think I'll pinch bhudda in the butta.
Aside from that, it sounds abjectly lonely.

quote:

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not enough......think I'll pinch bhudda in the butta.
Aside from that, it sounds abjectly lonely.

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You must not remember what it's like to be lonely there George. Besides, if you can't turn yourself on using your own imagination how do you expect other people to turn you on? And if you can't love yourself . . . nevermind.

To think nothing of brainstorming sessions where ideas are shared and interact and evovle ... ... hoo, I'm getting a little flush ....added by edit:... intellectual group sex ... heh This message has been edited by RAZD, 06-29-2004 08:38 PM

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Does kind of {pornography of violence} really restrict itself to one sex? ... isn't it all about dominance power etc?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

not all porn is, no.but when it's about power, it's usually men over women, and often in ways that go beyond sexuality. the minority of tims, when it's reverse (femdom), it rarely steps outside things deemed sexual.

I don't know where you get your information, but you are way off.While it certainly true that the majority of power issue porn is boy over girl... which is natural if boys are the leading customer and are more dom than sub... there is plenty of girl dominating boy porn. And let me tell you it goes well beyond just the sexual.In fact, most real SM tapes have very little actual sexual (meaning genital contact between partners) activity. And girls can be just as cruel as boys in those tapes.What's more you seem to have forgotten there are girls that dominate girls, and boys that dominate boys.Personally I cannot stand pure SM stuff. But I have no problem with people exploring power issues at all, even up to power issues that have nothing to do with sex (which is what I consider real SM).Is there some reason people should not work out there power issues, even violence issues, through the safety of fantasy and controlled environments?The japanese (and I would say Europeans as well) have shown statistically that it can act as a pressure valve.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

very well. 'He's' a complete jerk.
As for imagination? It is the only good company 'lonely' has. I mentioned here somewhere, that you bring your very own imagination to your bed, and you make it grow by paying attention to your lover, the one you love, to bring fullness of purpose. It is reciprocal, one hopes. Well, you should love yourself. Don't you?

Intellectual group sex? I think it's rampant on Instant Messenger Boards. I was once invited to chat in one of those 'rooms', and being a bit naive asked 'isn't that where people talk about sex?' I was told in solemn solemnity that this is the whole idea.
I declined.
How's your flush?

ummmm royale and straight?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}