Sex and Sin

I was having a recent conversation recently about sex and morality, during the conversation we began to talk about sex as a sin. Then it occured to me that Christianity, and other related religions, seem to be incredibly preocupied with sex, sexual behavior, and sexuality. Not only this, but sex, in general, seems to be viewd by these belief systems in a negative light.This is a rather broad question, and I hope it dosn't seem like I am passing the buck, but I really would love to hear some of your ideas as to why sex is such a christian preocupation? Especially as to why it seems to be viewd as such an evil thing.Personaly, I think it has to do with guilt. I think christianity generaly teaches, if it feels good, your probably doing something wrong That's horribly simplistic, and I apologize. But seriously folks? Why is this the case?

Maybe an effort to distance the faith from all the pagan religions that it plagiarized in its early years?

Do you think that only Christian's are preocupied with sex? I recently read "The Red Queen" by Riddle and it is moslty concerned with the scientific understanding of why there is sex at all. It is possible to be preocupied with it from a scientific viewpoint as well.If you must have a preocupation, I would say it is a pretty reasonable one.

Hey Nosey, That sounds like an interesting book!I just recently finished reading Microcosmos by Margolis(sp), it was fascinating. I understand she has a book on the evolution of sexuality as well, I'm gonna check that out one day .In any case, on the topic at hand.I know many pagan religions had sexual belifes, but I think christianity is distinct as viewing sexuality as a predominantly negative thing. Despite the roots of this belife however, how did the negativity come into the picture?Romans embraced sex, as did the greeks, Celts, Hindus, Shinto, etc. It seems that christianity sticks out amongst these as having a "sex is bad" atitude. Maybe it's just the fundamentalists [This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-24-2003]

I don't really want to immerse myself in this one at this time. so I hope you will be somewhat satiated with a suggestion. The base concept is that sexual interaction was designed to take place in a specific set of circumstances, namely a man and his wife. In the circumstances which it was designed to take place, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Hebrews even says the marriage bed is undefiled. May I then suggest you review some earlier passages of scripture and see what kind of specific activity the law of God outlaws? Specifically you might try the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus to start.Russ

Hey Apostolos,Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Deuteronomy and Leviticus are big books, so I googled up some chapter refrences. Please supply any you may have in mind.In any case, I concentrated on Deuteronomy 22 where it has the bulk of sexual morality laws etc.Many of them concern themselves with female virginity. And how if she is found not to be a virgin when married, the man can rightfully divorce, if a man has sex with a virgin, he must marry her, etc.Yet, none of these verses concern themselves with male virginity. I think my question would be where did the doctrine of "specific circumstances" arise?It seems that the bible makes no specific prohebition of the following:Males needing to keep their virginity.
Explicit prohebition of sex before marrige.
Explicit prohebitions about masturbation.Yet these three things are regularly proclaimed as abominable by many christians. What are the supposed biblical supports for this?It is my view, that the laws regarding these things, are at worst based on the ignorance of the times, and at best horribly outdated relics of a mysoginistic culture. Just as we don't bring the sheets of a newly wed to the village elder, or stone people to death, shoulden't the prohebition of pre-merital sex be viewd as outdated? After all we do have effective contraception, and education to deal with these things. And virginity is truely a meaningless concept to begin with.What are your views on this?[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-25-2003]

Again, I hope I can make you happy with a short answer. I have just immersed myself (no other word can be used to describe the size of that post) in another thread and I want to be careful of neglecting that one which I began in first.Anyway, let me say that if God makes any sort of punishment for an activity, however light, it is clear that He is not happy with that activity. In that light, having a physical relationship with a woman before marrying her, is not ok as long as you marry her. It is wrong. However, to rectify the situation, God commands that marriage take place. That doesn't mean its ok for a man and woman to have a physical relationship if they are getting married anyway. I know this may seem like I am reading into the text. Please excuse that. I am just trying to answer briefly. Also, you might consider the verse at the end of Genesis 3 which talks about the man leaving father and becoming "one flesh" with his wife. While this has a deeper meaning than a physical relationship, that is certainly included.Having covered (thought lightly I admit) the two dealing with virginity, let me say this: Concerning the other, and really all three, it stems from a biblical definition of what marriage is. Part of that is the phyical relationship and that was designed for the relationship of marriage only. Basically to partake outside of marriage is to violate God's design for life. A brief example (which I am sure might start a controversial rabbit trail): God never intended for man to be drunk but that can easily take place if grapes are allowed to ferment (sp?). Just cuz it is possible doesn't make it right. The limiting of a thing all gets back to God's original design for that situation.Thats all I can really afford to say on the matter for right now and hope that it helps.RussOk, one last thing - I couldn't leave this one alone. Throughout all of scripture sexual purity is connected to spiritual purity. An oversimplification of the idea being you can't extremely spiritual and extremely loose with your body at the same time. Zephyr kind of hit on this with his comment about pagan religions. And, if those pagan religions were formed by people who began by rejecting God (my assertion) it would be understandable for them to rebel sexually as well as spiritually. Anyway, I am not totally devoid of attention to this thread. It is simply not my priority right now. But let me know what you think.[edited to add postscript][This message has been edited by apostolos, 11-25-2003]

Hey Apostolos,Sorry, I don't mean to drag you away from other topics, and I don't mind if you take a long time before adressing the discussion here. If others would like to chime in, it's of course welcome as well.Ill start with your last statement and work up: I think haveing a pre-merital sexual relationship, and 'slumming around' are two diffrent things all together. I would agree with you here, I think trivializing sex, and being loose about who you give it to is never a good thing.However, what about a monogumus, and commited relationship between a loving cuple who may not feel it's time to get married, if at all?Generaly, what about people who have genuine feelings for each other, and share physical intemacy at that level? I personaly see nothing wrong with this, which is why I view the biblical ideas concerning virginity as outdated.Today we have contraception, sex education, among other facilities. If you raise your child well, and teach him the meaning of sex, love, respect, etc. What's the harm if that person wants to share his sexuality with someone he cares deeply about?With regards to the biblical concept of virginity, especialy in the OT, it seems to concentrate solely on female virginity. All of the laws revolve around females, proving their virginity, what to do about losing it.The OT also, speaks of slave girls, kings and their concubines, and handmaidens, capturing virgins, etc. etc. This clearly speaks of a culture who valued a woman based on her virginity, and little else.With regard to men, I have yet to find the verse regarding how they should remain virgins. It seems to be mute on this, in places it seems to imply a double standard. Seeing as how polygamy was alowed and so on. Well, many pagan religions were indeed much more liberal when it came to sex, yet that does not mean all. Other cultures in the middle east, Africa, and Asia have similar concepts.Im sure you are familiar with the horror of FMG (female genital mutilation), without going on a tangent, many of the cultures who practice this do so on tge assumption that it will keep their women faithfull. Again, the same double standard often seen in these mysogonistic, patriarchal societies.Hearing these peoples rational, and reading the levitacal laws, I can't help but see a parallel. I could post some speciffic refrences if you like.The above covers, male virginity, and pre-marital sex. With regards to the other issue, Masturbation. I remember being told this was sinfull back in christian school, and being 13 and figuring out for the first time was a wierd experience. I didn't know whether to feel guilty about it or not. Till I found out everyone did it, then realized, after reading a medical textbook, that it was perfectly normal.So how can something like this be sinfull? Something all humans, and many animals, engage in at one time or another. Is there a biblical root?

I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that if it feels good you must be doing something wrong. Many people who call themselves Christians find that they are actually worshipping a code of conduct instead of the God of the Bible and it becomes a game of who's the holiest of the bunch game. When this happens, you get all kinds of crazy legalisms of don'ts and don'ts.Sex was ordained by God as a means of intimate expression between a husband and a wife within the confines of a recognised marriage relationship. Sex outside of this is considered sin by Biblical standards because it isn't designed to be a casual communial activity. Our society is fixated with showing sex to be more appropriate outside of the boundries of marriage, and marriage itself as a restrictive and repressive advasary to sexual fullfillment.So I'll ask you. Would it be more exciting for you to research for a car, save the money for it, buy it and drive it for the first time when it's delivered, or would it be more exciting to you to drive the thing for a 2 year lease and then go in and buy it and drive it for the first time as your own car but with 30,000 miles already on it? Or would you get even more excited about a used car because it's a classic in top shape but with a ton of miles on it. Even if you opt for the demo model you'll expect to pay less. Why? Because it isn't worth as much because other's have put miles on it. You'll say that you should test drive a car before you buy it and I say the same principal applies to getting married. The test drive is in the dating and courtship in which time you learn about each other's personality and habits. Some confuse this with a sexual test drive which is counterproductive because it teaches nothing about the person you are marrying, it only takes the most special thing away from them that they have to offer once the deal is signed. Their sexual innocense.So if you think that Christianity is sexually repressive because it won't ordain you to go and plug every skeezer that you cross, think of it in terms of protecting you to attain maximum sexual satisfaction. On your wedding night you and your new bride are going to experience something for the first time together. You probably won't be as good at it as John Holmes and Christy Canyon on video, but you will never forget the experience and neither of you will ever worry about being compared to some other experience or person in their past. That is a real ace to have when the tidal waves of worldly pressures come beating on your marriage door and it's one less thing to have to deal with when the heat turns up.I assume you'll say that all of this is bunk and you feel better about satisfying your lusts now with mas variety and when you find Mrs. Right you'll settle down. Actually, all you'll be able to do is give Mrs Right what's left of you because the emotional well is only so deep and it takes a bucket or 2 out every time you do the horizontal hula with someone else whether you acknoledge it or not.Years ago I was told this very same information and I discounted it as repressive religious bunk. I did things my way when I pleased and as often as I pleased. I had plenty fun for sure - Gidddddy Up! But now on the other side of things I can see the absolute value that would have been obtained by following the instruction. I assume by the tone of your question that you will do as I did because I'm just a fundy christian with a freaky icon as a face. Of course doing it the world's way is fun. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be an issue. But the price you pay for waiting is temporal until your wedding night. The price you pay for not is far more long lasting and emotionally costly. Anyone who says it's not is not being honest with themselves.[This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-25-2003]

i find this interesting
apostolos
Quote:
Basically to partake outside of marriage is to violate God's design for life.why does god have so many scruples about sex and when it occurs. he doesnt seem to mind that animals have sex without being married. why does it matter if some person certified by some organisation to preform marrage says the words "you are now man and wife". doesnt that sound a little trivial when talking about the supposed all knowing creator of the universe.

Because Genesis 1 says we were made in God's image, animals were not. And, yes, this principle extends to the rest of the argument.Russ

Hey Lizard Breath,I really didn't mean to set the conversation on a hostile tone at all. My apologies, I really am simply trying to find the biblical root of christianities views on sexuality. I was mearly pointing out that the biblical laws don't seem to apply to men, and indeed seem to promote men having multiple partners. Here is your first problem, if your looking at sex and relationships like buying a car, your already takeing the wrong aproach. Either you love someone or you dont, this has nothing to do with sex, shopping before you buy. Relationships are organic, they are not a test drive. It has to do with mutual attraction, and deep feelings of comrodary and oneness. If your takeing girls (or boys) out for test drives, of any sort, I think your setting yourself up for disapointment. Now, I don't know about some peoples attitudes tword sex, but how on earth could that be the most special thing they have to offer? It's just sex. Something which is meaningless without love and emotion.I would surely hope that marrige isn't a sexual contract, or some sort of analgesic for your insecurities as you assert in your next paragraph: What kind of attitude is this? What kind of caring, loving couple, would put this much stock in sexulaity, let alone play comparisons? We aren't shopping for the best price in soup here, we are talking about love.back up a bit: I don't think I was promoting this attitude, and I don't think anyone seriously does. Sex between loving partners, is a serious thing. I am mearly proposing that the idea of virginity, and pre-merital sex is outdated.It is perfectly possible, if you are an individual of some moral character, to have sex outside of marrige and not be "pluging every skeezer". I see nothing wrong about people who want to share their sexuality, under genuine circustances, doing so. I don't see the need for the guilt.You seem to think that everyone who has sex outside of marrige, is promoting some sort of 'cavalier' attitude about humpping everything that moves. The fact is, most people have sex because they actually care about the person they are with, and it provides an outlet for their intemacy. I don't understand this, virgin or not, if your gonna mary someone, sex should not be priority one, cuz one day your both gonna be old and nasty And if you love each other, and things are wonderfull, sex will be great. Anyone who has ever had a serious relationship knows this. Wow! That's a big assumption about me. I have had very few relationships, some sexual, some not. All of them were serious, and wonderfull in their own way. None of my Ex's hate me, and I still keep in touch with a few. And guess what? I'm engaged. LOL! What? I got plenty of love friend, and it keeps springing fourth .Seriously, I don't know where you get this idea from. Again, NOT EVERYONE WHO HAS SEX OUT OF WEDDLOCK, IS "PLUGGING EVERY SKEEZER". If you are the kind of person that does that, then you have personal problems that range outside of your sexual habits. I think you are makeing big assumptions about my lifestyle, not to mention the lifestyle of everyone else who dosn't belive in abstinance. None the less, to get back on topic. Where is the biblical backup for these belifes?And what about that pesky masturbation thing?

i dont understand the point you are making, could you explain a little more.[This message has been edited by ?Lucid?, 11-25-2003]

No chilling required here. I think you are interpreting my statements in a tone that I didn't intend to transmit. Sorry if I seem hostile.I didn't intend to paint you as a promiscuous sexual tyranasaurous rex or something. I like to inject humor into my posts to solicit a laugh but they make for easy targets if someone choses to start quoting them to look like they are taking some kind of moral high ground and paint me as a callous monk.I hope you can gather what I was trying to say around the misidentified humor. If you think that having sex with someone is cool as long as it's a genuine circumstance and you are overflowing with love then more power to you.

Also way off topic but if the individual you are enguaged to turns out to be the one you choose to marry/cohabitate with/or whatever you call a more permanent relatioship, I sincerly wish you the best of luck because in our world today the odds are stacked against long term relationships. We have 5 sets of friends who right now are going through divorces and last year my long time mentor divorced his wife of 30 years for another woman.It's a hell of an undertaking but still very well worth it IMHO. Again, the best of luck.